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  1. #1
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    Paramount full DA, valuable?

    I'm new here but longtime cyclist. My first Schwinn was a Varsity when they were 10 speeds! I've always admired Paramounts and just picked one up this week. It's a Paramount, serial is 580DMW A92043. I've done some research and I think it is: a Paramount made in Waterford in January, 1992, size 58. I found a Schwinn 92 catalog and it looks similiar to my bike: Selle Italia saddle, full 7400 dura ace. Mine has 3TTT stem and bars in back. This thing is a beauty, virtually like new. It has a blue splatter paint job and the original white bar tape. I'm wondering if my info is correct and if anyone has an idea of the value. I am not a collector but more of a rider--I have an 06 Madone with Ksyrium SLs, Full Force and FSA carbon crankset that I love--but this Paramount is show quality and I'm intrigued. Thanks for any help from out there.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member miamijim's Avatar
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    Sure....$400-500 on the street/retail market.

    what did you pay?
    WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma; 1991 Paramount PDG 70 Mtb; 1976? AD Vent Noir; 1989 LeMond Maillot Juane F&F; 1993? Basso GAP F&F; 1989 Terry Symmetry; 2003 Trek 4700 Mtb; 1983 Vitus 979

  3. #3
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    92 Paramount

    Hi, thanks for the reply. I paid 600 figuring I could part out for about $1000 (I've done this with all the DA 7400 parts in the past). I was really expecting this would be more--I see Paramounts getting 400-1000 just for the frame/fork and this is in mint condition.

  4. #4
    Senior Member RobbieTunes's Avatar
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    It may well be more. Paramounts vary. The higher ones have Campy, but I'd take the DA 7400 in a flicker. Good buy, I think, at $600, to ride. I don't think flipping it will net you a lot more.

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  5. #5
    Senior Member miamijim's Avatar
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    I'll disagree with Robbie a little on this one.

    If your buying it to keep $600 is on the very, very extreme high end of street/retail pricing.

    I bought an '88 Paramount with full Dura-Ace and parted it out in the fall. Looking at my spreadsheet I was able to sell everything, excluding wheels, for ~$425. Figure another $100 or so for the wheelset and I'm looking at $525-ish in total revenue.

    Surprisingly Dura-Ace 7400 doesnt bring alot of money. I actualy get more money for 600/Ultegra STI's than I do for Dura-Ace because the 600/Ultegras interchange with everything else in Shimanos line whereas the Dura-Ace only interchanges with Dura-Ace.

    Dont get me wrong, I'd like to see you get as much as you can.
    Last edited by miamijim; 01-15-09 at 05:56 PM.
    WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma; 1991 Paramount PDG 70 Mtb; 1976? AD Vent Noir; 1989 LeMond Maillot Juane F&F; 1993? Basso GAP F&F; 1989 Terry Symmetry; 2003 Trek 4700 Mtb; 1983 Vitus 979

  6. #6
    Since 1938... JunkYardBike's Avatar
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    Not if it's mint. Check the listings on ebay. $200 alone for the brifters if in excellent shape:

    http://completed.shop.ebay.com/items...&_udlo=&_pgn=2

    miamijim, your frameset was a repaint, and it had some patina. Not sure if the OP's frameset is original paint. If so, I'm guessing it could sell for near $400. Maybe more if that paint scheme means something special to someone (not me!).

  7. #7
    Senior Member miamijim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JunkYardBike View Post
    Not if it's mint. Check the listings on ebay. $200 alone for the brifters if in excellent shape:

    http://completed.shop.ebay.com/items...&_udlo=&_pgn=2

    miamijim, your frameset was a repaint, and it had some patina. Not sure if the OP's frameset is original paint. If so, I'm guessing it could sell for near $400. Maybe more if that paint scheme means something special to someone (not me!).
    I'm not disagreeing I'm just saying $1000 parted out is way optimistic.

    Lets say he gets $400 for the frameset which he very well may (alot of the Italians dont get that!!)...add $100 for the wheelset, $100 for the STI's. $40 for the crankset, $10 for the FD, $50 for the RD, $20 for pedals and $50 for brake calipers....

    Thats $770 assuming he can get those prices........

    I still think my original $500 street/retail is close.
    WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma; 1991 Paramount PDG 70 Mtb; 1976? AD Vent Noir; 1989 LeMond Maillot Juane F&F; 1993? Basso GAP F&F; 1989 Terry Symmetry; 2003 Trek 4700 Mtb; 1983 Vitus 979

  8. #8
    Since 1938... JunkYardBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
    I'm not disagreeing I'm just saying $1000 parted out is way optimistic.

    Lets say he gets $400 for the frameset which he very well may (alot of the Italians dont get that!!)...add $100 for the wheelset, $100 for the STI's. $40 for the crankset, $10 for the FD, $50 for the RD, $20 for pedals and $50 for brake calipers....

    Thats $770 assuming he can get those prices........

    I still think my original $500 street/retail is close.
    Well, you're leaving out an awful lot of components...


    I'd bet closer to $150-$200 for the wheelset (assuming Dura Ace hubs), $150 for STI, $60 for crankset (if it's mint, maybe more), agree on the FD, agree on the RD, agree on pedals, agree on brake calipers, $50 for headset (but probably more), $30 for BB (but likely more), $50 for seatpost (at least) maybe $30 for the stem/bar combo (not sure), $30 for cassette (if DA).

    So, I'm calculating near $1000, assuming the frame sells for $300. Of course, that's if all components are in mint condition, and it is in fact a full DA group, as OP stated. This would, however, require excellent ebay adverts with excellent photos and descriptions.

    I do agree with you that the 'street value' on CL would be closer to $500 complete.

  9. #9
    DRF aka Thrifty Bill wrk101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adventurer90 View Post
    Hi, thanks for the reply. I paid 600 figuring I could part out for about $1000 (I've done this with all the DA 7400 parts in the past). I was really expecting this would be more--I see Paramounts getting 400-1000 just for the frame/fork and this is in mint condition.
    Sounds like you already had your answer.

  10. #10
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    I mostly lurk here, but will jump in. I'm at the end of parting out a six speed DA group and the numbers you guys are quoting for individual pieces are pretty spot on with what I've received. Thought the crank would go for more and was surprised that the seatpost did.


  11. #11
    Since 1938... JunkYardBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrk101 View Post
    Sounds like you already had your answer.
    Indeed!

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=150321273711

  12. #12
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    Paramount Value

    As I mentioned before, I originally bought this to part out. I've done this a number of times, mostly with OCLV and Shimano, mostly DA. I've done a bunch of DA7400 and have found, as noted, that it doesn't carry as much value as newer, say 7700. I've found the items that bring the most value are not the drivetrain; instead it is the other stuff--hubs, seat tube, cassette, and headset.

    This bike is intriguing in that it is like a time warp. It really is in that good of shape--it sat in a garage for more than 12 years, unused.

    I've done a spreadsheet on this and the only parts I don't have value for is the frame and the stem/bars. The other stuff I have a decent hand on and could do alright. My main question is: Is this a real Paramount? From the serial number 580D MW A92042 I think it is. The Waterford website has information on what these SNs meant. The first 3 are the size (a 0 was added) the next number is the product code--but I don't know what the D means. The next letter is suppose to be the Company code--but they say K for Paramount and L for Waterford--mine is a M. The next letter was for the factory and mine indicates Waterford (W) plus it written on one of the chainstays (designed and handbuilt in waterford, wi) And the rest seems consistent to Jan, 1992, bike 43) (A92043). They say there was some inconsistency with these numbers, though. So if it's a real Waterford made Paramount, then there should be some decent value in a nearly perfect frame/fork of this era.

  13. #13
    Seasoned Rider/Wrench
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    By the way, nice to find opinions on bike stuff here. My primary enjoyment is riding bikes. I learned to wrench out of $ necessity and now know my way around road bikes are somewhat around mt bikes. I have paid for my last few bikes with ebay/craigs so it's worked out ok. I've built up my last few bikes including my 06 madone. I rode this Paramount one day and my Madone the next. I still prefer the later though enjoyed the feel of steel with the former.

  14. #14
    car dodger norskagent's Avatar
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    I think "D" indictes fork size (which corresponds w/ frame size), and "M" indicates oversized tubing. 'W" is Waterford.
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  15. #15
    Since 1938... JunkYardBike's Avatar
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    Coincidentally, this thread was just unearthed in the main C&V forum board. In it, there is information on decoding Waterford built Paramount S/Ns, posted my Scooper, who is arguably the Schwinn expert on the forum:

    The real tip-offs as to whether a bike is a Waterford Paramount or a Panasonic built Series Paramount are the "Series" decal, the serial number (Series bikes' serial numbers start with a number (last digit of year) then a letter (A-M, representing the month)), while the Waterford bikes have the self-describing serial numbers like 620E WK 87077 (620 is the frame size in mm, "E" is the fork steerer tube length, "W" is Waterford, "K" is the month of October, "87" is the year, and "077" means it's the 77th frame built in October, 1987). Finally, the Series Paramounts were delivered with unicrown forks while none of the Waterford road Paramounts had unicrown forks.

  16. #16
    Senior Member miamijim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adventurer90 View Post
    As I mentioned before, I originally bought this to part out. I've done this a number of times, mostly with OCLV and Shimano, mostly DA. I've done a bunch of DA7400 and have found, as noted, that it doesn't carry as much value as newer, say 7700. I've found the items that bring the most value are not the drivetrain; instead it is the other stuff--hubs, seat tube, cassette, and headset.

    I've done a spreadsheet on this and the only parts I don't have value for is the frame and the stem/bars. The other stuff I have a decent hand on and could do alright. My main question is: Is this a real Paramount? From the serial number 580D MW A92042 I think it is. The Waterford website has information on what these SNs meant. The first 3 are the size (a 0 was added) the next number is the product code--but I don't know what the D means. The next letter is suppose to be the Company code--but they say K for Paramount and L for Waterford--mine is a M. The next letter was for the factory and mine indicates Waterford (W) plus it written on one of the chainstays (designed and handbuilt in waterford, wi) And the rest seems consistent to Jan, 1992, bike 43) (A92043). They say there was some inconsistency with these numbers, though. So if it's a real Waterford made Paramount, then there should be some decent value in a nearly perfect frame/fork of this era.
    Quote Originally Posted by norskagent View Post
    I think "D" indictes fork size (which corresponds w/ frame size), and "M" indicates oversized tubing. 'W" is Waterford.

    I believe norskagent is correct in regards to the 'D'. Schwinn was using letters to indicate steerer tube length.

    Adventurer..in regards to the bars, stem and frameset. The bars and stem are ~$10-20 each and the frameset seomewhere in the $300-400 range. I feel the big wild card on the frameset is the paint scheme. Personaly, I like it.

    Sell in the spring to maximize your return.

    Jim
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  17. #17
    Seasoned Rider/Wrench
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    Well, thanks to all for the responses and education. So it seems I have a nice, but newer version of the Paramount, made in USA, but nothing special. It does have a weird paint job, but that is coming from someone with a bright ORANGE Madone with orange rimmed Pro Race 3s on Black and silver Ksyriums with everything else black (Force drivetrain, FSA kforce crank, zero gravity brakes, Easton carbon post, stem, bars) It sure gets more comments than the last few bikes I've had. One has to appreciate the unique...

    I have the bike on ebay on a best offer and am getting a bunch of hits/watches/ but no offers. The information I am getting here plus the value ed I am getting on ebay helps alot. If I don't get a decent offer I suspect I will keep it for a fun second bike and maybe sell in when the sun comes out later this year. Doug

  18. #18
    DRF aka Thrifty Bill wrk101's Avatar
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    $1795 Buy it now! This will be breaking new ground.

    I think it will take more than the sun to come out to get to this level.

    Edit: I see he has dropped the price to $1395. Still breaking new ground. Will be a sign that the economy is humming!
    Last edited by wrk101; 01-16-09 at 06:31 PM. Reason: comment

  19. #19
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adventurer90 View Post
    I suspect I will keep it for a fun second bike and maybe sell in when the sun comes out later this year.
    You will be keeping it as a fun second bike.

    -Kurt

    P.S.: Get some nice, 1000x800 high-resolution pictures of the bike, host them on Photobucket, and put them in the ad with HTML. Except for the chainstay photo, it is very difficult to make out the specific appearance of that wacky '90s paint job on the eBay ad. Nobody will bid on a bike they can't see the paint job on.
    Last edited by cudak888; 01-16-09 at 01:35 PM.

  20. #20
    Seasoned Rider/Wrench
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    Fair enough on the suggestions. I did the buy it now/ offer on Ebay just to see what kind of responses/questions would pop up. It costs like $1 to do it that way vs. an auction with a reserve but I revised the price down a bit. I am hoping there are more people looking at the ad than just folks here on this forum! The ad is getting high volume and many watchers, so we'll see.

  21. #21
    DRF aka Thrifty Bill wrk101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adventurer90 View Post
    Fair enough on the suggestions. I did the buy it now/ offer on Ebay just to see what kind of responses/questions would pop up. It costs like $1 to do it that way vs. an auction with a reserve but I revised the price down a bit. I am hoping there are more people looking at the ad than just folks here on this forum! The ad is getting high volume and many watchers, so we'll see.

    Watchers mean very little. I am watching myself just to see if you can get it. I hope you do, it will be a good sign for the classic bike market. I have my doubts, but hey, every once in a while, ebay can surprise us all.

    +1 If you are serious about selling the bike, you need a lot more pictures, with closeups on components.

  22. #22
    Since 1938... JunkYardBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adventurer90 View Post
    I am hoping there are more people looking at the ad than just folks here on this forum!
    Who me?

    Your strategy is solid. Put in a high what-the-hell dream price, and someone who offers $400 less will think they're getting a steal! One caveat: people will be searching the web for info, and if they turn up this thread they'll see your original purchase price.

  23. #23
    Seasoned Rider/Wrench
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    I thought about the reveals here for Ebay buyers but I though it's one of those things where someone would just figure I found a barnyard gem and that's my luck. I've done enough breakdowns and part sales on ebay to be fairly comfortable on what I can get for parts (and the input here has verified my estimates--although I've seen wild swings over time on the 7400 stuff). What I didn't know what what the value was for the bike intact with paramount specific stuff like the frame (obviously) and the stem/bars with the P on them. Now I know. I will take the suggestion to get better pics (I did the originals with a simple digitial but will get busy with a better lens). I really appreciate the knowledge here. Now if I can just find a similar forum for a 74 targa I would be thrilled!

  24. #24
    Senior Member RobbieTunes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by royleroy View Post
    I mostly lurk here, but will jump in. I'm at the end of parting out a six speed DA group and the numbers you guys are quoting for individual pieces are pretty spot on with what I've received. Thought the crank would go for more and was surprised that the seatpost did.

    Nice stuff. Parting it out was much better economically.
    And this is the bike that group was on.... I definitely could not have afforded the aggregate total.


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  25. #25
    DRF aka Thrifty Bill wrk101's Avatar
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    Well, the auction ended and the OP got $1092 for the bike. He lowered the BIN price a couple of times. I would think that is top value out of that bike.
    Last edited by wrk101; 01-22-09 at 03:59 PM. Reason: typo

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