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Old 03-27-10, 05:31 PM   #1
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What kind of chrome lugged Raleigh (Carlton?) did I buy

Just picked this up off CL. I'm a sucker for chrome lugs. The headbadge would place it between '67 and '70, right? The serial number, N5775 is on the left rear dropout. N would be for Nottingham but Carlton put the numbers on the dropout. I haven't found any evidence of chrome on the rear stays but the paint is pretty thick back there. Haven't seen a bike with chrome lugs but not stays.
It's been ridden hard and completely rebuilt and ridden hard again. Lots of different components. They seem to be well chosen, though. The hub shiners are trick. I'll dig into the BB really soon here and figure out the threading. It's got just slightly steeper angles than the green Supercourse in the background but lots and lots of other similarities.
What do you think? Grand Prix? Grand Sport? Couldn't be a Competition, I just don't have that kind of luck.









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Old 03-28-10, 12:29 PM   #2
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I don't know! It's from the 60's or earlier. The seatstay style is like on the Grand Prix, which would make it a Nottingham Raleigh, not a Carlton. But the lugs are pretty fancy and they're chromed, so I really don't know.

The components are nothing special with the notable exception for the hubs. The hubs alone exceed the value of the rest of the bike.
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Old 03-28-10, 04:02 PM   #3
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First things first:

tire size?

there are a few interesting things going on there: The seat cluster looks like a Carlton seat cluster and there were very few models with that type of pump positioning (so at first sight, you might be luckier than a Competition) but that light mount on the fork clashes with that theory...
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Old 03-28-10, 08:35 PM   #4
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It's got 27 clinchers on it at the moment but the rims are Ukia, so not origional. There are stress fractures just behind the headlugs like you'd see on a bike that had been curbed really hard. Makes me wonder if even the fork is origional. I should scrape through a few layers of paint and see if it was the same color to begin with.
Ya know, I didn't even notice the hubs till I got home and was showing it to my wife. I think she though I was just showing off. Really I'm not proud of the hub shiners, I just pointed them out so that people would look at the hubs.
The bottom bracket is 70mm wide, the same as my Supercourse.
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Old 03-28-10, 09:43 PM   #5
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Hi Sailorbenjamin -

You really piqued my curiosity with your wonderful, very cool find, so I started looking. Unfortunately I could not identify the model - but I think I narrowed down the year.

From what I could find, the stem being drilled through for the front brake adjuster is typical of a Carlton of the period '62-65.

Early frame numbers were prefixed with a letter and were stamped on the left side rear dropout.
The Frame number chart lacks your "N" prefix, but it might well fall into the c. '64-pre-65 period. (See below):

(The list compiled from various sources and is probably not 100% accurate.)

A 1939 F 1957-58 L 1963
B 1940-48 G 1959 M 1964
C 1948-52 H 1960 S 1965
D 1953-54 J 1961 T 1966
E 1955-56 K 1962 Y 1967
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Old 03-28-10, 11:30 PM   #6
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Interesting. Thanks.
The bottom bracket is 24 tpi, standard english, not Raleigh.
I suppose the head badge mightn't be origional. It's pop riveted on.
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Old 03-29-10, 12:07 AM   #7
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I am kind of blank as to which model, but I do agree that it is early 60's based on the front fork. I believe that braze-on is for a front generator light add-on, but I could stand to be corrected. Either way, that is a really beautiful find ! Wish I found stuff like that out where I live. !
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Old 03-29-10, 07:01 AM   #8
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I just noticed the headlight mount on the right fork blade. This might have been a model intended for the British market, since they drive on the left side of the road. I saw a lot of those in the UK and Ireland.
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Old 03-29-10, 09:00 AM   #9
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The 1967 Raleigh catalog on RetroRaleighs lists a "Raleigh Carlton," which might fit the bill. That headbadge and BB oiler certainly places it in the 60s. Great find!

Neal
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Old 03-29-10, 11:03 AM   #10
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Hey, that's really nice! Those are pretty lugs!
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Old 03-28-14, 06:10 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorbenjamin View Post
Just picked this up off CL. I'm a sucker for chrome lugs. The headbadge would place it between '67 and '70, right? The serial number, N5775 is on the left rear dropout. N would be for Nottingham but Carlton put the numbers on the dropout. I haven't found any evidence of chrome on the rear stays but the paint is pretty thick back there. Haven't seen a bike with chrome lugs but not stays.
It's been ridden hard and completely rebuilt and ridden hard again. Lots of different components. They seem to be well chosen, though. The hub shiners are trick. I'll dig into the BB really soon here and figure out the threading. It's got just slightly steeper angles than the green Supercourse in the background but lots and lots of other similarities.
What do you think? Grand Prix? Grand Sport? Couldn't be a Competition, I just don't have that kind of luck.









Hi think we own the same model bike, sadly I don't know what mine is either but it has all the hallmarks of yours. Same chrome lugs, forks, brakes etc. did anyone identify it properly for you if so please put me out of my misery. Thanks I wait with baited breath.
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Old 03-28-14, 06:18 PM   #12
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This is mine.
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Old 03-28-14, 06:47 PM   #13
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Here are some interesting Carlton catalogs;
bulgier.net - /pics/bike/Catalogs/
I sorta decided mine was a Rapide. But I don't have much to go on. Nice to see another one out there. Enjoy!
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Old 03-29-14, 07:01 AM   #14
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Cool bike. Save the bait for fishing.
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Old 03-29-14, 07:49 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
The 1967 Raleigh catalog on RetroRaleighs lists a "Raleigh Carlton," which might fit the bill. That headbadge and BB oiler certainly places it in the 60s. Great find!

Neal
The frame and head badge resemble mine but for the chromed lugs. My paint is Flame Orange, chromed with a translucent orange coating. The front fork and paint job look more like a British version of the same frame as mine. Mine has the drilled GB stem. It is straight gauge 531.

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Old 03-29-14, 02:22 PM   #16
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headset looks as though it might be a model with floating u-races. have not run into that on a raleigh or carlton previously.

since shell is 24tpi one wonders if steerer will be 26tpi or 24...

mechs, hubs and chainset look to be eight to twelve years later than balance of machine.

thank you for sharing this curious find.

Last edited by juvela; 03-29-14 at 09:28 PM. Reason: additional information
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Old 03-29-14, 07:13 PM   #17
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I think you're in the right ballpark with the anniversary headbadge dating it to about 1968-1970 or 1971.

Do you know about Kurt's Headbadge site expansion into the world of Raleigh ? Many catalogs online in one handy place: Raleigh Catalog Database Archive

Carlton used those lugs on a lot of 531 bikes, including the pro, the international, and the comp, and I think even the super course for a while IIRC.
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Old 03-29-14, 10:12 PM   #18
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As pointed out, not a US model (light bracket on fork). The lugs are not Nervex, nor the god-awful ones used, at least in the US market, in 1973 on the Super Course and up. The head badge is not from the US market, either. I think the Carlton badge might have been similar in shape, but without the ruptured duck. I don't recognize it, but I'll bet it's a Carlton bike for the domestic UK market.
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Old 03-30-14, 04:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorbenjamin View Post
Interesting. Thanks.
The bottom bracket is 24 tpi, standard english, not Raleigh.
I suppose the head badge mightn't be origional. It's pop riveted on.
..here is one that showed up here that I overhauled which required some headscratching on my part,
because it was threaded standard, not Raleigh, but with a 71mm width BB shell. So I ended up trying
at least three different BB spindle cup combinations before I finally gave up and used a sealed unit
that would span the appropriate width. It has markings from both Sun and Rudge, as well as the wrap
around seat stay attachment that was used (I'm pretty sure) quite a bit by Carleton.




I really have no idea of the year on this one, and most of the components had been altered by the time i got it.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Rudge (Sun) 001.jpg (100.7 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg Rudge (Sun) 008.jpg (73.4 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Rudge (Sun) 010.jpg (86.8 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Rudge (Sun) 011.jpg (93.1 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg Rudge (Sun) 005.jpg (87.8 KB, 13 views)
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Old 03-30-14, 04:49 PM   #20
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Yes, mine is 531 straight tubing also & they are Nervex lugs Serie Legere 1958Nervexp5.jpg Photo by k4drd | Photobucket
hubs are Normandy & as far as I can make out the headbadge is from 65ish to 70ish. It has the original 27" Dunlop clinchers. The original colour was a beautiful metallic red one which I hope to put back on the bike but for now just trying to find the model. Thanks thus far.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
Cool bike. Save the bait for fishing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorbenjamin View Post
Here are some interesting Carlton catalogs;
bulgier.net - /pics/bike/Catalogs/
I sorta decided mine was a Rapide. But I don't have much to go on. Nice to see another one out there. Enjoy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by cranky old road View Post
The frame and head badge resemble mine but for the chromed lugs. My paint is Flame Orange, chromed with a translucent orange coating. The front fork and paint job look more like a British version of the same frame as mine. Mine has the drilled GB stem. It is straight gauge 531.

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Old 03-30-14, 05:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper Gav View Post
Yes, mine is 531 straight tubing also & they are Nervex lugs Serie Legere 1958Nervexp5.jpg Photo by k4drd | Photobucket
hubs are Normandy & as far as I can make out the headbadge is from 65ish to 70ish. It has the original 27" Dunlop clinchers. The original colour was a beautiful metallic red one which I hope to put back on the bike but for now just trying to find the model. Thanks thus far.
I bought mine new for $100 from The Stuyvesant Cycle Shop in December 1966. It originally had Normandy hubs and 27" Weinmann clincher rims. The crankset was and is Williams stainless cottered. The derailers were Huret Alvit. I've replaced the front with Simplex Prestige. The saddle Brooks B17. The brakes Weinmann Vainqueur center pulls. The Weinmann stainless fenders are originals. The frame and fork seem to be identical down to the paint with the Rudge above although the 531 tubing decal is a different design. It originally had the Raleigh white panel on the seat tube and Raleigh decals but I removed them as a youth because the Carlton branding was "cooler." My next door neighbor bought a Blue Raleigh Carlton at the same time from a shop in Winston-Salem, NC that had the more standard Raleigh head badge rather than the shield with World Champion stripes that mine has. The SN on my dropout starts with a U. There is also a SN on the BB shell (which does have the oil fitting or drain.)

To be clear, "Raleigh Carlton" was the brand and model name it was sold under in the US in the mid 60's. It is featured as an intermediate quality model in the contemporaneous edition of The Complete Book of Bicycling by Eugene Sloane. It was promoted as a Carlton factory built frame and Carlton catalogs from the same period included similar bikes with more exposed chrome and British features like the lamp mount.

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Old 03-30-14, 06:49 PM   #22
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I stand corrected (I think) re the Nervex lugs. They are not, however the ones used by Raleigh during my tenure.



Also, note that the light fixture is on the right fork blade, and the Rudge has no bracket. I know that it being on the right is not an absolute indication that it's a 'domestic' UK market bike as my Dawes Double Blue circa 1961 was the same.
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Old 03-30-14, 09:20 PM   #23
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nor the god-awful ones used, at least in the US market, in 1973 on the Super Course and up.
...I missed this originally. What a hurtful, judgemental thing to say about Capella lugs.

You, sir, are a lug Nazi. And an anti-Capellite, a rabid anti-Capellite. I am outraged.
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Old 03-31-14, 07:43 AM   #24
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Paraphrasing an old joke, "Not even 5 posts and I'm being labeled a Nazi already!" ROTFL. I shall treasure this, adding it with pride to my miniscule list of accomplishments.
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Old 03-31-14, 09:54 AM   #25
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Paraphrasing an old joke, "Not even 5 posts and I'm being labeled a Nazi already!" ROTFL. I shall treasure this, adding it with pride to my miniscule list of accomplishments.
...you're welcome.
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