What kind of chrome lugged Raleigh (Carlton?) did I buy
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What kind of chrome lugged Raleigh (Carlton?) did I buy
Just picked this up off CL. I'm a sucker for chrome lugs. The headbadge would place it between '67 and '70, right? The serial number, N5775 is on the left rear dropout. N would be for Nottingham but Carlton put the numbers on the dropout. I haven't found any evidence of chrome on the rear stays but the paint is pretty thick back there. Haven't seen a bike with chrome lugs but not stays.
It's been ridden hard and completely rebuilt and ridden hard again. Lots of different components. They seem to be well chosen, though. The hub shiners are trick. I'll dig into the BB really soon here and figure out the threading. It's got just slightly steeper angles than the green Supercourse in the background but lots and lots of other similarities.
What do you think? Grand Prix? Grand Sport? Couldn't be a Competition, I just don't have that kind of luck.
It's been ridden hard and completely rebuilt and ridden hard again. Lots of different components. They seem to be well chosen, though. The hub shiners are trick. I'll dig into the BB really soon here and figure out the threading. It's got just slightly steeper angles than the green Supercourse in the background but lots and lots of other similarities.
What do you think? Grand Prix? Grand Sport? Couldn't be a Competition, I just don't have that kind of luck.
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I don't know! It's from the 60's or earlier. The seatstay style is like on the Grand Prix, which would make it a Nottingham Raleigh, not a Carlton. But the lugs are pretty fancy and they're chromed, so I really don't know.
The components are nothing special with the notable exception for the hubs. The hubs alone exceed the value of the rest of the bike.
The components are nothing special with the notable exception for the hubs. The hubs alone exceed the value of the rest of the bike.
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First things first:
tire size?
there are a few interesting things going on there: The seat cluster looks like a Carlton seat cluster and there were very few models with that type of pump positioning (so at first sight, you might be luckier than a Competition) but that light mount on the fork clashes with that theory...
tire size?
there are a few interesting things going on there: The seat cluster looks like a Carlton seat cluster and there were very few models with that type of pump positioning (so at first sight, you might be luckier than a Competition) but that light mount on the fork clashes with that theory...
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It's got 27 clinchers on it at the moment but the rims are Ukia, so not origional. There are stress fractures just behind the headlugs like you'd see on a bike that had been curbed really hard. Makes me wonder if even the fork is origional. I should scrape through a few layers of paint and see if it was the same color to begin with.
Ya know, I didn't even notice the hubs till I got home and was showing it to my wife. I think she though I was just showing off. Really I'm not proud of the hub shiners, I just pointed them out so that people would look at the hubs.
The bottom bracket is 70mm wide, the same as my Supercourse.
Ya know, I didn't even notice the hubs till I got home and was showing it to my wife. I think she though I was just showing off. Really I'm not proud of the hub shiners, I just pointed them out so that people would look at the hubs.
The bottom bracket is 70mm wide, the same as my Supercourse.
Last edited by sailorbenjamin; 03-28-10 at 08:36 PM. Reason: drunk typist.
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Hi Sailorbenjamin -
You really piqued my curiosity with your wonderful, very cool find, so I started looking. Unfortunately I could not identify the model - but I think I narrowed down the year.
From what I could find, the stem being drilled through for the front brake adjuster is typical of a Carlton of the period '62-65.
Early frame numbers were prefixed with a letter and were stamped on the left side rear dropout.
The Frame number chart lacks your "N" prefix, but it might well fall into the c. '64-pre-65 period. (See below):
(The list compiled from various sources and is probably not 100% accurate.)
A 1939 F 1957-58 L 1963
B 1940-48 G 1959 M 1964
C 1948-52 H 1960 S 1965
D 1953-54 J 1961 T 1966
E 1955-56 K 1962 Y 1967
You really piqued my curiosity with your wonderful, very cool find, so I started looking. Unfortunately I could not identify the model - but I think I narrowed down the year.
From what I could find, the stem being drilled through for the front brake adjuster is typical of a Carlton of the period '62-65.
Early frame numbers were prefixed with a letter and were stamped on the left side rear dropout.
The Frame number chart lacks your "N" prefix, but it might well fall into the c. '64-pre-65 period. (See below):
(The list compiled from various sources and is probably not 100% accurate.)
A 1939 F 1957-58 L 1963
B 1940-48 G 1959 M 1964
C 1948-52 H 1960 S 1965
D 1953-54 J 1961 T 1966
E 1955-56 K 1962 Y 1967
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Interesting. Thanks.
The bottom bracket is 24 tpi, standard english, not Raleigh.
I suppose the head badge mightn't be origional. It's pop riveted on.
The bottom bracket is 24 tpi, standard english, not Raleigh.
I suppose the head badge mightn't be origional. It's pop riveted on.
#7
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I am kind of blank as to which model, but I do agree that it is early 60's based on the front fork. I believe that braze-on is for a front generator light add-on, but I could stand to be corrected. Either way, that is a really beautiful find ! Wish I found stuff like that out where I live. !
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I just noticed the headlight mount on the right fork blade. This might have been a model intended for the British market, since they drive on the left side of the road. I saw a lot of those in the UK and Ireland.
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The 1967 Raleigh catalog on RetroRaleighs lists a "Raleigh Carlton," which might fit the bill. That headbadge and BB oiler certainly places it in the 60s. Great find!
Neal
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Hey, that's really nice! Those are pretty lugs!
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Just picked this up off CL. I'm a sucker for chrome lugs. The headbadge would place it between '67 and '70, right? The serial number, N5775 is on the left rear dropout. N would be for Nottingham but Carlton put the numbers on the dropout. I haven't found any evidence of chrome on the rear stays but the paint is pretty thick back there. Haven't seen a bike with chrome lugs but not stays.
It's been ridden hard and completely rebuilt and ridden hard again. Lots of different components. They seem to be well chosen, though. The hub shiners are trick. I'll dig into the BB really soon here and figure out the threading. It's got just slightly steeper angles than the green Supercourse in the background but lots and lots of other similarities.
What do you think? Grand Prix? Grand Sport? Couldn't be a Competition, I just don't have that kind of luck.
It's been ridden hard and completely rebuilt and ridden hard again. Lots of different components. They seem to be well chosen, though. The hub shiners are trick. I'll dig into the BB really soon here and figure out the threading. It's got just slightly steeper angles than the green Supercourse in the background but lots and lots of other similarities.
What do you think? Grand Prix? Grand Sport? Couldn't be a Competition, I just don't have that kind of luck.
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Here are some interesting Carlton catalogs;
bulgier.net - /pics/bike/Catalogs/
I sorta decided mine was a Rapide. But I don't have much to go on. Nice to see another one out there. Enjoy!
bulgier.net - /pics/bike/Catalogs/
I sorta decided mine was a Rapide. But I don't have much to go on. Nice to see another one out there. Enjoy!
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Cool bike. Save the bait for fishing.
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The 1967 Raleigh catalog on RetroRaleighs lists a "Raleigh Carlton," which might fit the bill. That headbadge and BB oiler certainly places it in the 60s. Great find!
Neal
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Last edited by cranky old road; 03-29-14 at 08:13 AM. Reason: added images
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headset looks as though it might be a model with floating u-races. have not run into that on a raleigh or carlton previously.
since shell is 24tpi one wonders if steerer will be 26tpi or 24...
mechs, hubs and chainset look to be eight to twelve years later than balance of machine.
thank you for sharing this curious find.
since shell is 24tpi one wonders if steerer will be 26tpi or 24...
mechs, hubs and chainset look to be eight to twelve years later than balance of machine.
thank you for sharing this curious find.
Last edited by juvela; 03-29-14 at 09:28 PM. Reason: additional information
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I think you're in the right ballpark with the anniversary headbadge dating it to about 1968-1970 or 1971.
Do you know about Kurt's Headbadge site expansion into the world of Raleigh ? Many catalogs online in one handy place: Raleigh Catalog Database Archive
Carlton used those lugs on a lot of 531 bikes, including the pro, the international, and the comp, and I think even the super course for a while IIRC.
Do you know about Kurt's Headbadge site expansion into the world of Raleigh ? Many catalogs online in one handy place: Raleigh Catalog Database Archive
Carlton used those lugs on a lot of 531 bikes, including the pro, the international, and the comp, and I think even the super course for a while IIRC.
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As pointed out, not a US model (light bracket on fork). The lugs are not Nervex, nor the god-awful ones used, at least in the US market, in 1973 on the Super Course and up. The head badge is not from the US market, either. I think the Carlton badge might have been similar in shape, but without the ruptured duck. I don't recognize it, but I'll bet it's a Carlton bike for the domestic UK market.
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because it was threaded standard, not Raleigh, but with a 71mm width BB shell. So I ended up trying
at least three different BB spindle cup combinations before I finally gave up and used a sealed unit
that would span the appropriate width. It has markings from both Sun and Rudge, as well as the wrap
around seat stay attachment that was used (I'm pretty sure) quite a bit by Carleton.
I really have no idea of the year on this one, and most of the components had been altered by the time i got it.
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Yes, mine is 531 straight tubing also & they are Nervex lugs Serie Legere 1958Nervexp5.jpg Photo by k4drd | Photobucket
hubs are Normandy & as far as I can make out the headbadge is from 65ish to 70ish. It has the original 27" Dunlop clinchers. The original colour was a beautiful metallic red one which I hope to put back on the bike but for now just trying to find the model. Thanks thus far.
hubs are Normandy & as far as I can make out the headbadge is from 65ish to 70ish. It has the original 27" Dunlop clinchers. The original colour was a beautiful metallic red one which I hope to put back on the bike but for now just trying to find the model. Thanks thus far.
Here are some interesting Carlton catalogs;
bulgier.net - /pics/bike/Catalogs/
I sorta decided mine was a Rapide. But I don't have much to go on. Nice to see another one out there. Enjoy!
bulgier.net - /pics/bike/Catalogs/
I sorta decided mine was a Rapide. But I don't have much to go on. Nice to see another one out there. Enjoy!
The frame and head badge resemble mine but for the chromed lugs. My paint is Flame Orange, chromed with a translucent orange coating. The front fork and paint job look more like a British version of the same frame as mine. Mine has the drilled GB stem. It is straight gauge 531.
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Yes, mine is 531 straight tubing also & they are Nervex lugs Serie Legere 1958Nervexp5.jpg Photo by k4drd | Photobucket
hubs are Normandy & as far as I can make out the headbadge is from 65ish to 70ish. It has the original 27" Dunlop clinchers. The original colour was a beautiful metallic red one which I hope to put back on the bike but for now just trying to find the model. Thanks thus far.
hubs are Normandy & as far as I can make out the headbadge is from 65ish to 70ish. It has the original 27" Dunlop clinchers. The original colour was a beautiful metallic red one which I hope to put back on the bike but for now just trying to find the model. Thanks thus far.
To be clear, "Raleigh Carlton" was the brand and model name it was sold under in the US in the mid 60's. It is featured as an intermediate quality model in the contemporaneous edition of The Complete Book of Bicycling by Eugene Sloane. It was promoted as a Carlton factory built frame and Carlton catalogs from the same period included similar bikes with more exposed chrome and British features like the lamp mount.
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Last edited by cranky old road; 03-30-14 at 06:36 PM.
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I stand corrected (I think) re the Nervex lugs. They are not, however the ones used by Raleigh during my tenure.
Also, note that the light fixture is on the right fork blade, and the Rudge has no bracket. I know that it being on the right is not an absolute indication that it's a 'domestic' UK market bike as my Dawes Double Blue circa 1961 was the same.
Also, note that the light fixture is on the right fork blade, and the Rudge has no bracket. I know that it being on the right is not an absolute indication that it's a 'domestic' UK market bike as my Dawes Double Blue circa 1961 was the same.
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You, sir, are a lug Nazi. And an anti-Capellite, a rabid anti-Capellite. I am outraged.
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Paraphrasing an old joke, "Not even 5 posts and I'm being labeled a Nazi already!" ROTFL. I shall treasure this, adding it with pride to my miniscule list of accomplishments.
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