oldlugs

I've been watching this for a while now, (I own the same bike myself), and have watched it for almost a year now with no takers. I finally went to see it this weekend and the bike is in near mint condition. The part I don't get is why its still for sale?
I've been thinking about selling mine and there's no way I'd let mine go for that cheap.
Have prices dropped this much over the past few years?
I turned down $500 a year or more ago for mine and it don't look nearly as nice as the one on CL.
What really gets me is that I've gotten nearly that for a clean Varsities and other entry level bikes, yet a minty Panasonic sits for sale? Its even a taller frame. I could see if it were a small bike but these big frames are hard to find, especially in nice shape.
I'm tempted to buy it and sell mine, but I'd still have to sell mine for double what this guy wants for his.

The one on CL even has Barcon shifters added, a big improvement over the DT shifters they came with.

https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/bik/3692467516.html

jet sanchEz

Definitely a great price but finding a rider who is 6'8 and into vintage Japanese steel is, evidently, quite difficult.

KonAaron Snake 

Just what was said above...

I'd consider the asking price a bit optimistic, but within the range IN PHILADELPHIA...it's still a mid-grade Japanese bike. If someone offered me $500, I'd smile all the way to the bank. I think you are over estimating the value of your bike and I don't think they've dropped much lately, I don't think a Panasonic DX4000 would sell for $500 too often any time in the last decade.

There are a few reasons it hasn't sold:

1. It's VERY large...severely limiting the audience. I think it's safe to assume a large bike will sell for 20% less and take far longer to sell.
2. A lot of people don't like barcons.
3. Inconvenient location - he's not in Philly, he's in Vineland NJ, which is around an hour from Philly.
4. Lousy ad.

You're limiting your pool of buyers to really large guys who like barcons and are willing to drive an hour to NJ for a bike that is not priced at a must have it level. Add to that Panasonic not being THAT well known for bikes and an ad that doesn't really highlight why someone should be interested (if they don't know already). The photos also aren't very good and that saddle makes it look like a much cheaper bike. I'm not at all surprised it hasn't sold and when he first put it up, I thought geee...we'll see this all year.

oldlugs

I don't think I can agree that its a mid range bike, I bought mine new and at that time, it was one step down from what we would have considered non roadable here due to sew up tires. For those over 6' tall or over 250lbs its as high end as it gets.
Back in the day I broke several 'higher end' frames, in the end the consensus was that I needed to stay away from the better chromoly framesets. Anything better than Champion #2 was sure to break.
I've owned my DX4000 since 1983, the added frame size cost me a good bit more back in the day, the bigger frames were more money.
I paid $751 cash for mine back then. I've since replaced the rims twice, the derailleurs three times, and the saddle twice. The original saddle was hard leather and didn't last me more than a few months.
These days I run thorn proof tubes, kevlar belted tires with added thorn strips. I still get blow outs. The reality is there isn't many decent big bikes to be had out there. Most bikes that size got abused, or just by the nature of their design, didn't survive.

At 6'3" tall, 305lbs, I've tried newer bikes and haven't found a bike made today that comes close to those old Japanese road bikes in fit. I can never seem to get proper leg extension on newer frames for some reason. I tried a Fuji Newest in a 64cm frame and hated it. The issue I have is having enough saddle to crank distance while still being able to touch the ground. The geometry of the older bikes handle this much better.
The bottom line is when your built to play football, the definition of a high end bike is far different than what someone 5' 2" tall 130lbs would consider high end.

Personally, I've always found it super tough to find larger bikes, there's always plenty of small bikes, never any decent larger frames. Anything bigger than 57cm tall is a rarity in most cases. Especially in older bikes.

wrk101

Not rare at all for me. I have a lot of them either finished or in the project queue right now. What is hard is finding tall buyers. Some of the notables in the tall size right now: a 1987 25 inch Schwinn Prelude, a 1986 25 inch Schwinn Peloton, a 25 1/2 inch Raleigh Super Course XII, and a couple more.

Over 57cm? I've got plenty in the 60cm +/-, including two nice Centurion Ironmans (one might be a 25 inch size, I don't recall right now), a nice Centurion Elite GT touring bike, a nice Trek 710, a Masi Gran Corsa, and many more.

60cm bikes sell fine. Its when I get over that size that the buyers disappear. Heck, a couple of them were bought from bike shops as they couldn't sell them either (and I thought I could.....)

Several will probably be parted out via ebay (framesets at least), just to move them (parts fit any road bike).

And this is despite trying to avoid them! I try to keep no more than two 25 inch or larger bikes in my to be rehabbed/completed rehab queue due to the lack of buyers.

oldlugs

All of those are newer bikes, my limit personally is 1983, nothing newer. 1980-1983 for the most part. I do have a few newer Raleigh Marathons in 26" frame sizes which I like but not near as much as the Panasonic.
Around here, and I'd venture to guess in Philly too, there's just no big bikes. I watch CL and several other free ad papers, as well as the two big newspaper classified sections and I've found and been able to buy only two over the past 10 years.
Either they bring big money, or they've been modified as single speeds and done so they can't be put back to stock.
I had a super clean 1985 DX5000 here a year ago in 66cm frame size but someone cut off all the cable stops and rigged it with a homemade single speed rear wheel and no brakes. My guess was it was a super clean bike before the butcher job.

I've had dozens of high end Schwinn bikes in 57cm that are all but unsellable, I had to turn to eBay to move them.
Yet a big Varsity will bring $300 in a matter of hours here. CL here is all 20" bikes and junk, Philly is a bit better, but you have to do more searching.
The way I look at it when it comes to my Panasonic DX4000, I can't go buy anything close to it for $500 these days, I don't think there's even a half decent road bike out there that's not made in China, let alone with lugs or chromoly frame and Suntour is gone.

I did some searching, in 1983, which mine is, the DX4000 was top of the line in steel, the next model was aluminum, the 14spd DX6000, then you went into the DX7000, which was as high as you got. There was at least 8 models below it, 3000, 2000, Sport 1000, Sport, Pro Tour, Villager III, Tourist 10, Tourist 5, Sport Deluxe, and Sport 500. The models listed from top to bottom, right on down to steel wheels.
Back in the day we had a big local Panasonic dealer here, they were king of the hill when it came to bikes in this area, you either rode a Panasonic or a Motobecane, or you rode something really cheap. Not many guys could afford the jump to buy a Panasonic or even the Motobecane back then, they were both Asian bikes at that time. If you wanted better, or wanted a bike to just compete, you went to a Schwinn but no one 'bought' those bikes, they were given out to team members riding for various clubs and shops.
The local shops stocked up to 23" frames, anything larger you had to special order, and unless you wanted to wait till next year's model, you paid the extra to get one right away. I've got 14 bikes, all are 63 to 65cm frame size, I buy anything decent that comes along for a good price, but that's not often. I just bought an early Trek frame and fork at a yard sale for $100, its in decent shape and in a super large frame size, I already took a deposit on it to be assembled with nearly all original parts for $800. The buyer who bought it is sending it out to be stripped, repainted and restored before I assemble it. No telling what he's paying to have that done.
I'd have left it as it was and just built and rode it. I'd have kept it but it was too long for my liking.
My favorite bike is my 1978 Raleigh Super Grand Prix, its not at all 'high end' but its in near new condition, it fits me better than any of my other bikes and it was by far my cheapest bike I've bought yet. I bought the bike at a Seattle swap meet for $90, but paid $145 to ship it home in two boxes.
The biggest issue with shipping a big bike is that they automatically put the package to at least the first oversize charge. That's if you can find a suitable box. Most of the time I end up making a box out of two small bike boxes.

I sold a 69cm (26") Panasonic Sport the other day, it was a bit older, I think maybe from 1980 or so. I had 15 or so people show up to look at it, most had no clue what a 69cm frame size meant. The guy who bought it was 5' 2" tall, he asked if I'd remove the saddle for him, and he hopped on it and gave it a test ride, came back and handed me $400 cash. He never even bickered about the price. I had it listed high figuring I'd get beat up on the price a bit but he never once said a word. He made it very clear he intended to add two chrome fenders, a chrome rear rack, taller handle bars, white wall tires, and a custom paint job. It was a low end, entry level model but it was super clean, I'm sure today its sporting a banana seat and white walls.
Most of the big frame buyers I get aren't those who 'need' a big frame, they want the monster frame because of how it looks.
I rarely get people who know why frame sizes differ, they just think bigger is better. Japanese bikes sell best here, with Schwinn being a close second, followed by Raleigh. French, Italian, and other brands are a tough sell.

I think something your missing is the buyers point of view, if your 6' 6" tall, what are the chances of finding a bike you want? I know that around here I have trouble finding even 57cm or larger bikes. My perfect size is usually 62-63cm, they just aren't out there in good shape. Those that are aren't likely to be ready to ride. By the looks of that bike on CL that one is, chances are its in minty shape judging by the pics. I'd also put those barcons as a pretty big plus, if you ever rode a tall frame, you would realize that frame shifters are a real stretch to reach. On most of my bikes I added either top tube shifters, stem shifters or barcons to get away from unreachable frame shifters. My arms just aren't long enough to reach down that low. (Picture chin hitting top tube or teeth hitting the stem trying to reach down to the shifters while avoiding your knee as you pedal).
For me, to get proper leg extension, I have to ride a 64cm frame with about 4" of seat post showing, that puts the frame shifters all but out of my 22" reach on a tall frame.

anixi

Come on, Bill! Everyone knows that North Carolinians are just plain short!
BTW, I have the same issue here, tall bike customers are rare. It seems that I'm going to have a hard time selling my 64cm Fuji...

Thumpic

As a nonexpert, I have to wonder why all the NOS parts. If it saw as little use as claimed, why would you replace parts that should last decadeswith minimal care? new handlebars? Was it in a flood?

KonAaron Snake 

"I don't think I can agree that its a mid range bike, I bought mine new and at that time, it was one step down from what we would have considered non roadable here due to sew up tires. For those over 6' tall or over 250lbs its as high end as it gets."

It is not a high end bike from a market perspective. You can argue all day long that it's a high end bike as a user, but it was not a top end bike in terms of rarity, parts, tubing or price when it was made. Top of market bikes don't have Shimano 600. Top of the market bikes cost well over $1000 when you bought it. I am not arguing it isn't a great bike for your usage, weight and height - I'm not criticizing it as a tool. I am saying that from a hierarchy/price perspective, it's a mid-range bike. I'm heavy as well...and I don't like super light tubesets either. My favorite bikes are generally heavier, thicker tubesets. I understand exactly what you're saying...but none of that changes its general market value which is based on supply and demand, not our opinions of quality.

It's a large, mid-range bike with limited appeal based on size, geography, and a poor ad. I'm not at all surprised it hasn't sold and Vineland is an area people avoid that is quite out of the way with limited public transit options. The difference in selling a bike downtown vs. out of the way areas is tremendous, especially for a bike that someone will want as a rider. That person is going to think geeee...I'll wait until something pops up more locally. The price isn't attractive enough to get a guy in a car to Vineland (there may be a guy who does, but it's not an easy market). It's not a super rare collectible grail kind of bike - it's a really great bike to use to ride around. At the end of the day, it hasn't sold - which I think tells you everything you need to know.

wrk101

+1 The market has decided high end will have higher end components and higher end frame tubing.

Mid grade does not mean a mediocre or average bike. I have several bikes that are very special to me, but from a market perspective, are mid grade. Two that come to mind are my Paramount series 5 (originally came with Shimano 105 components) and my chrome Katakura Silk (originally came with Suntour LaPree components).

KonAaron Snake 

My Koga Miyata has Shimano 105 and was third down their hierarchy...I freaking love that bike. I had a Miyata 916 that I liked as much as pretty much anything I've ever been on. My wife LOVES her Panasonic DX-3000 and it really is a great bike for what she needs. They're great bikes, but they aren't super valuable or "top end."

himespau 

Wow, I must just not look as hard as you. I'm currently looking for something in the 24-25" range (or 61-64 or so cm) and I don't find a lot. But then I don't spend as much time searching as I could either.

fettsvenska 

I'm not a true expert but I'll chime in on this topic. Here are some reasons why I think this bike hasn't sold. I obviously don't have anything to back this up, just my opinion.

1. For whatever reason, suicide levers turn people off. Maybe some people automatically assume a lower end model without considering the rest of the bike. Sort of like stem shifters.
2. Craigslist is really more like a big online garage sale where a lot of people, not everyone but a lot, go to search for bargains.
3. Given #2 above, postings that state that the seller is firm on the price might be a turn-off for some buyers.
4. Panasonic made great bikes but they didn't really have great brand recognition. This bike is certainly superior to the Schwinn Varsity but I know a lot of people who associate Panasonic only with electronics. I know others that believe that Schwinn made the best bikes in history and that they still do. My father-in-law still thinks that Schwinns are the best bikes on the market. The funny thing is, I think that Panasonic actually made some bikes for Schwinn (maybe someone more knowledgable can confirm or refute this).
5. Any product or service is only worth what someone will pay for it. There might be someone out there willing to pay $300 for this bike but the planets will probably have to align just right. A tall rider, who recognizes the Panasonic brand, not looking for a bargain, lives in the general area, sees the CL post, is motivated to respond to the CL post and go look at the bike.

himespau 

I do wonder with such a large size if ebay with its wider audience would be better market for this bike.

wrk101

The points fetts makes above are definitely true in my market.

#2. Buyers are looking for bargains. Most of my vintage bike sales do not go to buyers looking for vintage bikes. Instead, most go to buyers that got sticker shock at the LBS, and are looking for an affordable alternative to the seemingly expensive new bikes. Sold one last night that way. Buyer went to the LBS first, saw that a new road bike was going to cost him about $1000. At that point, he started looking at used.

#4. Panasonic gets ZERO recognition around here. Sell a Schwinn, a Trek, a Peugeot or a Cannondale, and you get swarmed with buyers. I sold a wonderful Panasonic mtb earlier this year. It took me a freakin year to sell it for $125. Meanwhile, I had a very basic Trek mtb, sold it in a couple of hours for more, the same exact week (same size). I sold a nice Panasonic mixte for X, took me several weeks to sell it. Sold a 1974 Peugeot mixte for 2X, took me a day to sell. This is really sad to me, as I love my Panasonic built bikes.

Here's a test. Put two Panasonic built bikes side by side, and attempt to sell them. One has a Schwinn label on it (made by Panasonic), the other a Panasonic label. In my market, the Schwinn will bring 2X.

#5. Every market is different. Around here, on an older bike (with some rare exceptions), even a wonderful one, there is a cap of about $250 max. There are 100 buyers looking for a low cost, decent bike for every one buyer looking for a higher cost, but 10X nicer, vintage ride. Hence, I have a hefty backlog right now of bikes to go on ebay, where there are a lot more sophisticated buyers.

Hopefully your market is better.

KonAaron Snake 

Also - the ad is really bad with poor photos. That may work for someone 10 minutes away - but when you have to go to Vineland, which is a DISTANCE for most of his audience, that's a problem.

FastJake

+100 The market has decided that the price is too high. Whether that's "fair" or makes sense is irrelevant.

I think certain bikes should sell for more, and others should sell for less. Does that matter? No.

fettsvenska 

I couldn't agree more. But then again I have a certain fetish for nice Japanese bikes. It's not that there aren't nice bikes from other countries but I just love a good Miyata, Bridgestone, Fuji, Panasonic, Shogun, Lotus, etc.

vintagebicycle

I'm basically in the same market area as that Panasonic bike is, but closer to AC than Philly.
Bikes here don't sell well, no matter what the brand. I've picked up minty clean Paramounts and top end Trek bikes here for cheap.
Its just not a bike area. As far as Panasonic, as a brand, in this area, back then it was top of the line, right next to Motobecane and Schwinn. There was nothing else in the consumer market unless you did spend $1500 or more, and that wasn't likely to happen back then. Bike shops simply didn't stock such bikes and people just didn't order them. I worked in several shops back in the day and can count on one hand how many bikes in the high end bracket were sold. Most of them are still with their original owners today.
For me and most others high end is any bike that cost more than a car did back then, and my first car was $200.
I owned several Panasonic bikes, including a DX4000, it was probably the highest model you would find out and about being used back in the day here. Most around here rusted away from the inside out from salt air exposure, that wouldn't be a concern where that seller is though. There were several dealers selling Panasonic here, most dealers either had Panasonic, Motobecane, Schwinn, or Raleigh as their top offering, the majority here had Panasonic or Raleigh, those with Raleigh usually seemed to also sell Motobecane. Schwinn and Panasonic were often sold under the same roof.
Many 80's era Schwinn Letour models were Panasonic built, but I don't recall a direct match to the DX4000 or 5000 models. The Panasonic bikes were always lighter.
Also, keep in mind that back then Shimano 600 was the top of the line, Dura Ace was just showing up as a full group then. I'm not sure what determined whether a DX came with Shimano or Suntour, but mine had a mix of Suntour and Shimano 600 when new.
My rims were Araya A20, hubs were Shimano 600, cranks were Sugino, Stem was SR, my derailleurs were Cyclone, and the bars were SR.
It also wasn't uncommon for a new owner to swap parts around from day one. I still have all the original parts from mine here in a box, they never saw any use since I had the bike outfitted completely with Shimano Aero components.
Mine too was a tall frame, but only a 25" model, I don't recall ever seeing one in a small frame, all of us who rode together back then were tall, I was the short guy at 6' 3" tall. One guy rode a slightly newer Raleigh in a 69cm frame size. I ended up with his bike but mostly as a conversation piece. Even I can't climb on that thing. It was in the Raleigh/Huffy years. He had bought that bike and immediately had all Suntour components installed along with two Phil Wood hubs and Weinmann rims.

Chances are the bike on CL was a similar situation, or else it sat and the components just aged. I can't count how many bikes I've redone for people where they just want all new old stock parts, even though they never rode the bike in the first place. In the long run its probably cheaper than paying me to clean, polish, and relube old dusty parts. New old stock in the box is always nicer.

Another way to look at that bike is that you simply can't buy one new, either in size or in Champion #2 lugged steel.
As big bikes go, I'd have to say its pretty high up the food chain. I'm also not even sure they made big tube sets in any better tubing.
1983 also was a last of and era when it came to road bikes, one more year and index shifting was being phased in, lugged frames were giving way to aluminum and internal welded frames, and more and more cheap Asian built bikes were starting to pop up.
Also, many big names were going away. Raleigh as we know it was gone, Schwinn was on its way out, they had just closed up one plant and had already started to purchase bikes outside the company, bike sales in general were slipping, many shops were closing up or specializing and the mountain bike craze was changing the type of bike the average buyer was looking for.
In my opinion, in this area, Panasonic was king from around 1980 through 1989 or so, then they too seemed to disappear.
The most common model here was the DX2000, with a few DX3000 models here and there. The DX4000 was a big jump in price. I think the actual sticker price on my 1982 was something like $529.99. I then added $400 in new parts on top of that. They did ad higher models as years went on but at one point the DX4000 was top of the line, as new components came about, new models to showcase those parts were offered.

I found this online about Panasonic: https://www.yellowjersey.org/pana.html

I also found this one, also in NJ: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bicycle-Pana...425#vi-content

In my opinion, the older models were better looking bikes, they lacked the cheesy 80's colors and had a classier look. Other than components though, the bike stayed about the same through the years.

wrk101

That ebay auction is a real joke. "As perfect, just like as sold..Never used" Huh, the tires don't even match! Bike is way dirty (check out the picture of the front brake caliper). Where did all that road grime come from if the bike was never used.

Its another seller can ask anything on ebay, but until it has sold, its just a dream.

himespau 

Yeah, I saw that grime too and laughed at the "never used" bit. Well after my eyes got uncrossed from reading all that stupid bold italics crap text with no paragraph breaks. People need to understand that they should make their text legible if they want people to buy their stuff. All caps, all bold, all italics, no breaks in the text all mean I'm going to close your tab and go look at a listing from someone who actually wants me to buy their item.

KonAaron Snake 

seriosly himespau, i couldnt agree more!!!!!!!!! Nuthin is wors den a hard to read add wit' annoying fonts and know paragraff br8s. If u want 2 sell ur bike, u got to make it easy to read!!!!!

zukahn1 

+1 It is the same where I'm at in the Denver market Panasonics go for close to half what similar or nearly identical bikes with a Schwinn label get and Peugoet mixte will get 2x plus what a much nicer Japanese mixte will.

junkpile

I think the above post is the real issue where the CL seller is. I lived in that area for a long time and cheap bikes were king. Bike shop brand bikes were rare. If you look at other items on CL there it pretty much explains why a nicer ride like that Panasonic won't sell. Most of the bike shops cater to BMX buyers and the average adult rider buys either a comfort bike or cruiser, road bikes and places to ride them are non existent unless you go to Phila.

When I was in that area I rode a Nishiki Pro, which was probably the competitive model to the DX4000 back in the day, when I moved I tried to sell it there but had no luck. Even at $150 it drew no attention. Being a large frame bike shipping it was an issue. I sold it after I moved for $400 a year after I moved. I had listed it on CL, in several local papers, and at work, but nothing, the best offer I had was $25. I would have done better parting it out on eBay and trashing the frame.

I don't agree that big frames are less in demand, their just hard to ship. While it is harder to find taller riders, when you do they usually jump on a bike that they can ride. Larger frame bikes are also rarely in good condition, most have been ridden harder or abused, others have been stripped for parts since the frame is such a hassle to ship.

Mixte bikes don't sell well here, I've had dozens of them and most got parted out and scrapped. Peugoet don't bring much here unless its a PX-10 model in mint condition. I had what basically looked like a new old stock pair of bikes here last year, one was a UO8, the other a Mixte UO18 model from the mid 70's. Both had new tires, no rust, no wear, and looked never ridden but neither one would sell on CL. I ended up parting them out. The UO8 was a 23" model. The UO8 brought about $55 in parts and the Mixte maybe $30. The mixte frame finally sold on eBay for $10, and the UO8 frame went for $21. Yet i sold a similar pair of Centurion bikes for $500 on CL here. Neither were even close to the condition those two Peugeot bikes were in.
There is no name recognition these days among most cheap bike buyers, they never were into bikes enough to know the difference. Beyond maybe Schwinn and Huffy, they don't know anything about brand. What I get all the time is customers asking why would they pay $200 for an old Schwinn when they can go to Walmart and buy a new one for $80?

If they don't know the difference between a real American made bike and Chinese junk, they surely won't remember Panasonic or other well built brands from 25-30 years ago.
This attitude pretty much puts the cap on old bikes in that area around $50 to $75. Beyond that and the buyer is going to be from far away and willing to drive there.

FastJake

A high end Schwinn would've been lighter than a low end Panasonic. Both companies offered a full line of bikes.

No, Shimano 600 was never top of the line. Dura Ace has been around since 1974.

+1 That NJ ebay seller is delusional. Sellers can ask whatever they want. That's the problem with ebay, when people think their item is worth what some yahoo on ebay is asking.