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  1. #1
    Senior Member SH27's Avatar
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    Late 70's to early 80's Carlton, looks very nice but I'm uncertain how far to bid.

    Hi,

    b'm Bidding on this bike but am not certain where to set my ceiling (what can you afford I hear you thinking, but let's pretend that is not an issue), I think it has a Shimano 600 ex Arabesque gruppo loking at Disraeligears, although vendor describes as Shimano DX 600. It looks beautiful but I have never really thought of Carlton as a top marque brand, put it another way I am undecided to bid on this over and above a Peugeot 525 Comp I am also watching, so I would appreciate your various opinions. Enjoy the photos!

    Attachment 393853Attachment 393854Attachment 393855Attachment 393856Attachment 393857Attachment 393858Attachment 393859

  2. #2
    Bianchi Goddess Bianchigirll's Avatar
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    I believe it has two different, if not three, 600 groups. Plus I am not sure of those gold hubs are shimano or Suzie.

    Is this a respray? Looks super clean

    Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto (2), '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '88 Trofeo SOLd, '86 Volpe, '89 Axis SOLD, '79 Mixte SOLD, '99 Mega Pro XL Ti SOLD, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

    Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '86 Bertoni (sold), '09 Motobecane SS, '98 Hetchins M.O., '09 K2 Mainframe SOLD, '89 Trek 2000, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape

  3. #3
    Senior Member SH27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
    I believe it has two different, if not three, 600 groups. Plus I am not sure of those gold hubs are shimano or Suzie.

    Is this a respray? Looks super clean

    Nope, apparently original paint and decals, but it does look incredibly clean for its age.

  4. #4
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    The clamp on type cable ties and shifters make me think its more in the early 70's time, but I don't know the British history of Carlton. Based on looks alone I'd go at least $500 US, but I love English bikes of that era.
    Recycle, Reclaim, Reuse and Repair
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  5. #5
    Senior Member zukahn1's Avatar
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    It may just be me but I get the feeling the bike isn't quit right. The super clean frame and mixed non matching non orignal components don't seem to go together. $500 US seems fiarly high I would only go $300 maybe $400 if i really liked the bike and could inspect it in person.

  6. #6
    Senior Member SH27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
    The clamp on type cable ties and shifters make me think its more in the early 70's time, but I don't know the British history of Carlton. Based on looks alone I'd go at least $500 US, but I love English bikes of that era.
    Its had two careful owners I believe, and little use over last decade. I believe Carlton was the upmarket wing of Raleigh but I'm not sure.

  7. #7
    Senior Member SH27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zukahn1 View Post
    It may just be me but I get the feeling the bike isn't quit right. The super clean frame and mixed non matching non orignal components don't seem to go together. $500 US seems fiarly high I would only go $300 maybe $400 if i really liked the bike and could inspect it in person.
    I'm viewing next week, I spoke at length with owner who identifies the front and rear mech as being of a similar pattern, quite ornate which leads me to think the 600 arabesque is closer to the mark. He confirms a new seat post and brake hoods have been added but I believe him when he says paintwork is original. He tells me the main reason for lack of use is that he acquired the bike from a family member but frame was too small for him. Hubs are Ofmega btw.

  8. #8
    Can'tre Member 3alarmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SH27 View Post
    Its had two careful owners I believe, and little use over last decade. I believe Carlton was the upmarket wing of Raleigh but I'm not sure.
    ...this is a mistaken notion. Carlton was one of may companies that Raleigh swallowed up, and certainly the early
    Carlton bikes were very showy, in terms of lugs and paintwork, but no showier than the top end Raleighs of the same era.

    The company sold all sorts of bikes branded Carlton. Usually a Carlton bike was made in the Carlton Works in Worksop, until it was closed.

    But theyr also turned out Raleighs there, depending on the model and year. It's somewhat confusing, really, even when you read about it.

    I've not seen a Carleton like the one you picture, but I'd be reluctant to pay 500 bucks for that one. But I can get some pretty nice
    stuff here on the local Craigslist, and am reluctant to buy stuff at bid on the internet because of numerous problems that can arise.

    Additionally, unless it's local pick up, shipping around the US usually runs toward another $100.

    For 600 bucks here in Sacramento, I can buy (and have bought) much better bikes. I would think that where you are would be ideal
    for finding some swell older English stuff, but perhaps I am in error. It does look to be a very clean and nicely made bike, with a 531
    sticker on the seat tube, but I cannot believe those wheel hubs are original, and the components look to be replacements to me.

    But there was a period of time right before the Carltons disappeared when they came with Japanese made componentry..which might be this one's story.

    Anyone telling you the bike is all original would be suspect, IMO. Which is just MO.
    Last edited by 3alarmer; 07-18-14 at 01:10 PM.
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    No wonder everybody hates you.

  9. #9
    Can'tre Member 3alarmer's Avatar
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    ...one more thing, there was a point where Shimano was trying to introduce a different pedal
    with a much larger proprietary shaft threading where it goes into the crank arms.

    It was a decent idea, mechanically, but never took off commercially. I can't tell for certain,
    but it looks like this bike might be so equipped, and if so, pedal replacement can be problematic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrierman View Post
    No wonder everybody hates you.

  10. #10
    Senior Member SH27's Avatar
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    Thanks, I would have to agree that it is not all original and than much is obvious, I'm fairly certain it is a Carlton however, as for price I think taking all the comments into the equation I wouldn't be happy to pay more than 160 for it. Given what period bikes in A1 condition sell for here I think that would be reasonable. I will know better once I've inspected it however.

  11. #11
    Senior Member SH27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
    ...one more thing, there was a point where Shimano was trying to introduce a different pedal
    with a much larger proprietary shaft threading where it goes into the crank arms.

    It was a decent idea, mechanically, but never took off commercially. I can't tell for certain,
    but it looks like this bike might be so equipped, and if so, pedal replacement can be problematic.
    Interesting, was this for reinforcement?

  12. #12
    Can'tre Member 3alarmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SH27 View Post
    Interesting, was this for reinforcement?
    ...Shimano was forever introducing new designs that were "engineered" for improvement.
    Sometimes they caught on, sometimes they did not (Biopace). It's probably an effort
    on their part so sell more product, but who knows ? As I said, I can't tell for sure,
    but that one photo sure looks like it.

    As a side note, 500 bucks is what i paid here for my International, but it needed a complete
    overhaul from stem to stern. The parts were all original and the paint good, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrierman View Post
    No wonder everybody hates you.

  13. #13
    Bianchi Goddess Bianchigirll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
    ...one more thing, there was a point where Shimano was trying to introduce a different pedal
    with a much larger proprietary shaft threading where it goes into the crank arms.

    It was a decent idea, mechanically, but never took off commercially. I can't tell for certain,
    but it looks like this bike might be so equipped, and if so, pedal replacement can be problematic.

    I am pretty certain these are those funny pedals. SH27 if you want to use a different pedal one this bike you will need a very rare pedal adaptor or a different crankset.

    Your in England right? If I was in England I would looking for a dusty old Hetchins, Bates or Bob Jockson at whatever you Blokes call yard sales over there. If you haven't found them yet you might want to familiarize your self with these two websites.

    Velobase.com A huge wealth of information. VeloBase.com

    Also the late great Sheldon Brown's site is packed full of stuff too. Sheldon Brown-Bicycle Technical Information This guy must have spent three live time tinkering with bikes and trying out different stuff.


    Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto (2), '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '88 Trofeo SOLd, '86 Volpe, '89 Axis SOLD, '79 Mixte SOLD, '99 Mega Pro XL Ti SOLD, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

    Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '86 Bertoni (sold), '09 Motobecane SS, '98 Hetchins M.O., '09 K2 Mainframe SOLD, '89 Trek 2000, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape

  14. #14
    Senior Member SH27's Avatar
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    Thanks guys, I have to say I don't get to many yard sales but I probably should research a bit more here. I do check out Retrobike occasionally however. is eBay such a bad portal for vintage bikes? I guess you have to know what your looking at, that's why I find it essential to post on here because I can't tell a butchers bike from a Bianchi!

  15. #15
    Can'tre Member 3alarmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SH27 View Post
    I can't tell a butchers bike from a Bianchi!
    ...this is a prescription for disappointment on e-bay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrierman View Post
    No wonder everybody hates you.

  16. #16
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    Those are indeed Shimano DynaDrive pedals and cranks. The idea behind the design was to drop the surface of the pedal to bring the shoe in line with the pedal axle center rather than have the shoe perched above it. Makes a certain amount of sense, but the market spoke.

    I'd be tempted to buy the bike, put on a set of conventional cranks and pedals, and eventually sell the DynaDrive set. It's not as if there's a coherent component group on that bike that you need to maintain, and if that crank and pedal set is not yet a highly valuable collectible, it's on its way, especially in that condition.

  17. #17
    Bianchi Goddess Bianchigirll's Avatar
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    Did Carlton or Raleigh ever sell just frames? I am sure we all have at least one bike where we bought the frame and built it how we wanted it. My '90 Bianchi Proto is still mostly original but it is original how I built it not how factory specced it. Could that be the case here?
    Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto (2), '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '88 Trofeo SOLd, '86 Volpe, '89 Axis SOLD, '79 Mixte SOLD, '99 Mega Pro XL Ti SOLD, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

    Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '86 Bertoni (sold), '09 Motobecane SS, '98 Hetchins M.O., '09 K2 Mainframe SOLD, '89 Trek 2000, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape

  18. #18
    Can'tre Member 3alarmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
    Did Carlton or Raleigh ever sell just frames? I am sure we all have at least one bike where we bought the frame and built it how we wanted it. My '90 Bianchi Proto is still mostly original but it is original how I built it not how factory specced it. Could that be the case here?
    Calling all '72 Raleigh and Carlton Professional Owners
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrierman View Post
    No wonder everybody hates you.

  19. #19
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
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    In the late sixties, some Carlton models were available as framesets.

    - Stan

  20. #20
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    I am not sure the bike is overpriced, but as noted it is esoteric. The DynaDrive cranks are interesting, the pedaling feels a wee bit different, but not terribly so. With them you will be married to traditional shoes and cleats. If the pedals have the aluminum clips... be ready for sticker shock should you need replacements and you will need them, the steel clips are easier to find and still pricey. The pedals require a special spanner to service or adjust, not cheap. The bearings are in my view a bit under engineered. I have a set up.

  21. #21
    DRF aka Thrifty Bill wrk101's Avatar
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    On yea old bid site it really is all about how bad do you want it. You do not see one of these very often and if you are particular on size even less often. If you have the $$ and it's exactly what you want, bid high, higher than it is worth to most of us here. It's so much easier and cheaper to be brand agnostic. Then you can find a lot more bike for a lot less $.

    the one time I had to have a specific bike in a specific size, I overpaid for sure. But I looked for two years before I found one and I didn't want to wait another two years.

  22. #22
    Senior Member SH27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrk101 View Post
    On yea old bid site it really is all about how bad do you want it. You do not see one of these very often and if you are particular on size even less often. If you have the $$ and it's exactly what you want, bid high, higher than it is worth to most of us here. It's so much easier and cheaper to be brand agnostic. Then you can find a lot more bike for a lot less $.

    the one time I had to have a specific bike in a specific size, I overpaid for sure. But I looked for two years before I found one and I didn't want to wait another two years.
    From my limited experience I can only gauge what I think it's worth from looking at what else is out there, take the following as examples:
    Bates Vegrandis - 400
    Bates.jpg
    Ribble - 290
    Ribble.jpg
    Andre Bertin PX10 - 225
    Bertin.jpg

    The Bates and Ribble have Campagnolo gruppo apparently, Bertin mix Shimano / Simplex.

    To me the Carlton with the same frame and in its condition 'seems' a decent buy, especially against the Bates at more than twice the price?

  23. #23
    Senior Member SH27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
    ...this is a prescription for disappointment on e-bay.
    You'd be right, I have had some narrow escapes but then you learn (hopefully) from your mistakes!

  24. #24
    Can'tre Member 3alarmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrk101 View Post

    the one time I had to have a specific bike in a specific size, I overpaid for sure. But I looked for two years before I found one and I didn't want to wait another two years.
    ...yeah, there's a very nice Hetchins for sale locally that I've been going back and forth on for over a week.
    It has a few small issues, but exactly the size I like, and like all its ilk, very custom in terms of lugs and bling.

    But it's priced pretty high, and I do have just a crap ton of bikes out in the garage right now, so thus far it's a no.
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrierman View Post
    No wonder everybody hates you.

  25. #25
    Can'tre Member 3alarmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SH27 View Post
    From my limited experience I can only gauge what I think it's worth from looking at what else is out there, take the following as examples:
    Bates Vegrandis - 400
    Bates.jpg
    Ribble - 290
    Ribble.jpg
    Andre Bertin PX10 - 225
    Bertin.jpg

    The Bates and Ribble have Campagnolo gruppo apparently, Bertin mix Shimano / Simplex.

    To me the Carlton with the same frame and in its condition 'seems' a decent buy, especially against the Bates at more than twice the price?
    ...Campy group that matches drives up the price. That's just the way it is.
    All the Raleigh and Carlton frames I have or have had that were full DB 531 have been fine bikes. (and I probably have had ten of them)

    Way back when, Carlton even had a Professional model, that was probably as good as the Raleigh pro.
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrierman View Post
    No wonder everybody hates you.

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