roadbikerLou

It is a repainted frame that I have taken responsibility for trying to identify for the owner so he can restore it properly. It has an English BB, round cylinder rear derailleur brazed on underside stop, Gipiemme rear brake mount, Bocama lugs although seem to be from two different series, with a cheap headset weighs in at 5lbs 4 oz, has connecting tube behind BB that is same as my 3 Columbus framed Zullo's. Has no engravings on top of forks, stays, or top of BB. Has engraving in large numbers 4801 on underside of BB. Has simplex rear dropouts. Has beautifully filed Bocama lugs. Has one mount set for water bottle, and brazed on downtube shifter posts. There are 2 round drain holes on underside of BB along with 2 metal brazed on channel type cable guides on same underside of BB. Their are 3 double circle braze on top tube cable guides although I have suspicion that they might have been added as they seem time period inappropriate for what seems to be a 70s road bike 56cm frame.


Please help if able. A guess of Lambretta has been put forth, although I can't seem to find any info on such. A seasoned LBS owner looked at it and thought that it is a Raleigh and could be one's made just for the UK market and one that was made in Japan as many of those did not have engraving stamps on them, and they used round cylinder stops for cable at the rear derailleur. Thoughts???

juvela

Foto format size too small to be of help for anything other than shell.

Readers will require larger format images including closeup of seat cluster.

T-Mar

Are there any stampings on the outside of the fork's steerer tube? Are there any ridges inside the bottom of the fork's steerer tube? If so, how many many and are they straight or helical? What size seat post does it take? What is the spacing between the inside faces of the rear dropots?

The frame may not be as old as you think. The Gipiemme cast brake bridges were introduced in the very early 1980s and the chances of it being a replacement would be low. Consequently, the rest of the fittings may be OEM. However, it doesn't appear to have a front derailleur tab which started appearing in 1982. It also doesn't have any of the embossing that was in vogue with the popular high end manufacturers by this time. The Gipemme bridge with Simplex dropouts is a strange mix, as are lugs from different series. All this would seem to indicate a small builder using whatever he had left on hand at year end, before his new shipments arrived. This has me wondering if the serial number format isn't yxxx? The serial number format doesn't match the Asian manufactured, higher end Raleighs that we've seen.

zukahn1 

I would say the frame is 80's also based on the brake bridges & top cable routing. The single water bottle braze on's style of fork crown would indicate early 80's. It does look to be a fairly nice higher end frame with fairly generic details and likely repainted it may be a bit hard to positively ID.

roadbikerLou

Thanks to all who are helping here in this mystery frame. My son just took some hopefully better pix that I will try and post. My son couldn't find any ridges or numbers..I keep thinking if only someone out hthere has come across the same kind of BB underside that it would give us an indicator. I will measure rear dropout width, but I'm pretty sure it is 126mm. I know for sure it is not 130mm. There is BCM written on front of fork which I'm sure indicates Bocama lugs and they match the Bocama lugs on my Austro-Daimler Ultima and my son's Austro-Daimler Superleight. I think if I take out the cheap headset and weigh it in grams I should be able to figure out which Columbus tubeset it is. I only am thinking Columbus though because of the connecting piece right behind the BB that as I've said previously is the same as our 3 Zullo Italian frames that are definitely Columbus.

Kactus

French dropouts, Italian brake bridge and English BB is an odd combination all right. The under BB cable routing says mid-80's to me. The threaded hole on the non-drive side rear dropout is different. Based on the bend of the forks, I would guess an English build and a small one like T-Mar hinted.

T-Mar

That style of Simplex dropout was introduced in 1977. So, we're still looking at early 1980s.

That chainstay bridge is generic, offered by a number of firms, including Gipemme.

The lack of ridges in the fork steerer suggests we are looking at something less than a full Columbus SL frame, if it is Columbus. It could be Tretubi SL or Aelle. Reynolds is also a distinct possibility. Tange or Ishiwata seem less likely but I wouldn't rule them out. The seat post size may provide further clues. If it's Japanese tubing, the steerer should be stamped with the manufacturer and a date code.

I don't see anything unique about the bottom bracket. It's a standard shell with standard cable routers brazed on. A hole in the shell to drain moisture and lighten things a bit was very common. Any small builder have done this. Everything on the bicycle is generic which, in conjunction with the serial numeral and era, still suggests a small builder.

roadbikerLou

Took out the fork and felt inside the head tube..totally smooth..on fork just above crown noticed stamped REYNOLDS 531 BUTTED 16/13. So guess frame is Reynolds unless it is just a 531 fork. twanged tubes..similar timbre, different notes as would be expected. Measured rear dropout at 126mm. .

roadbikerLou

Have more pix detailed but not able to upload from phone for some reason. I'LL GET them loaded from computer in the daylight.

roadbikerLou

The seat tube is 27.2

juvela

The lugset is BOCAMA Super-Profesional (their spelling) model R1.

We still do not know steerer and shell thread, although the 27.2 pillar size would imply and ISO dimension tubeset.

The somewhat unusual combination of lugs, tubing and ends might suggest a Belgian origin.

Perhaps the forum's @non-fixie could shed some light on the mystery...

non-fixie 

No immediate recognition. The most significant detail to me seem to be the TT cable guides. I have seen them before, but not often. Once on a Jan Janssen - which probably came from a Belgian builder - and on a Bertin, which may well have been made in Belgium too.

rando_couche

The lugs and drops give a distinctly French vibe, but the english bb and 27.2 post say otherwise. Belgium or Netherlands maybe?

SP
OC, OR

roadbikerLou

SP OC OR what is that? tubings? Thanks again for keeping me in a direction. I wish the forum had a convention somewhere where all those with experiences of their bike encounters could be utilized.
Is it right in thinking that the 4801 on underside of BB is a low number that might be a serial or more likely a build code of some kind.
Any chance it is a proto that some obscure builder made to try and get a contract from a large shop of the time?

roadbikerLou

the thread BB is English, but am I looking for a different more detailed thread..An old time LBS in North Tonawanda NY thought the bike may be a Raleigh but mentioned 24 or 26 thread..not sure what that means although I think 26 is unique to just Raleigh? It's a shame can't find many LBS now that know or have staff on remembering these things.

zukahn1 

Since the numbers look to be individually hand stamped this would indicate a semi custom small builder which would be consistant with the mix of frame parts.

howsteepisit

Another indication of it being a small builder is the seat stay caps do not exactly line up, on is joined ever so slightly lower than the other. I think this could be from a huge universe of local builders, looks to be decent workmanship but not great.

roadbikerLou

I must have had a bad picture angle as I measured both the seat stays and they are uniform in person.
Looking at the number of possible Belgian bike builders is staggering. I'll now focus on searching Plum, Ludo, Superia, Carlos, Splendor, Norta, Fangio, Diam, Martens, Martelly, Pintens, Van Staeyens, Flander, Menet (27.2pillar), Norta, V.D.Snickt, Hure Fika(bought Miyata & Japanese bikes to rebrand), Minerva, Squadra, and Vagacini. If anyone has any other suggestions please let me know.

Until then, the frame will remain in it's painted condition.

roadbikerLou

non-fixie 

Well, you've got your work cut out for you with that approach. There are hundreds, if not thousands, more Belgian bike brands. This is a list from 1953, and it's just the brands starting with an 'A' (let me know if you want B to Z as well):

ABC. - Cnops, Berchem-Sainte-Agathe
ABEILLE. - Quintens, Bruxelles
ADS - Desmaele, Alost
AJAX. - Peeters, Bruxelles
ALBATROS. - Van Goitsenhoven, Bruxelles
ALBERTUM.- Van Eycken, Bruxelles
ALCYON. - Blomme-Lecomte, Tournai
ALEPH. - Blomme-Lecomte, Tournai
ALFA. - M. Verbiest, Eecloo
ALOPEX. - Ph. Renard, Gand
ALOSTA. - A. Steveninck, Alost
ALOUETTE (L'). - Rosseneu, Lefèbvre et
Carlier, Courtrai
ALZAN. - Ludovic. Mons
AMBO. - Ambo, Turnhout
AMERICAN (THE). - Franco-Belge,
ANELY. - J. Niemegeerts, Wetteren
ANITA. - De Colvenaer, Saint-Nicolas-Waes
ANTWERPIA. - Antwerpia Cycle, Anvers
ANVERS YELOS. - Anvers Vélos, Anvers
AQUILLON. - Verenne, Boussu
ARCA. - Vereecke, Poperinghe
ARDENTE (L'). - Vassen, Liège
ARDI. - Missenheim, Verviers
ARGENTIN. - Devillez, Izel
ARIAC. - Ludovic, Mons
ARION. - Vercouillie, Poperinghe
ARIZONA. - Arizona, Borgerbout
ARO. - Beeuwsaert, Lendelede
ARTOS. - Ludovic, Mons
ASB - Sevens, Bruxelles
ASTORIA. - Echternach. Luxembourg
ASTRA. - Lummerzheim, Liège
ASTRID. - Peeters, Herenthout
ATLANTIC. - West Vlaanderen, Groolhandel,
Bruges
ATVARO. - Van Besien, Roulers
AUDAX. - Labié, Ladeuze
AVC - A. Van Caeneghem, Eyne
AVENIR (L'). - Marien, Lierre
AVROY. - Emo, Liège

AlexCyclistRoch

He was referring to the pitch of the threads (the # of threads per inch). Common "English" bottom brackets are 1.370 or 1.375x24 tpi, whereas classic Raleighs (the ones built in Nottingham) use an older/odder 1 3/8"x26 tpi. Also, classic Raleigh BB's often use a non-shoulder cup on the drive side, without a ring.

roadbikerLou

Ok non-fixie..I have had my laugh for the week. I had no idea there were/are that many. Since I always seem to have a bike on the stand, maybe it's time to give the bike back to my friend with the info I've put together over the past year with help from those much more in the know. At that point, he can decide if he wants to find another frame detective, hang it for another 7 years as it had been, or build it and do the ultimate test of frames...ride it. Name brands and obscure buildshops have one thing in common...They all are capable of making poor, good, excellent, and dream bikes to varying degrees. All your assistance has been most helpful. It's finally getting nice in this area of NY so time to think about all the charity rides this year...hopefully most of them on steel with downtubes, or the steels built to ride with the carbon titan guys where I have STI's in place.