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Old 04-09-17, 11:10 AM   #1
herbarium
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Help Identifying Frame Based on Lugs?

I've spent a lot of time trying to identify this frame but have had no luck so far. Can anyone provide some guidence? The lugs are very detailed and feature a "teardrop" cutout. A list of specifications below:

- The tubing has a Columbus sticker, which resembles a typical "Acciaio Speciale" decal, but the only letters readable appear to be A C R .....
- Campagnolo bottom bracket
- Ofmega headset.
- Dropouts look like Campagnolo, there is a faint etching but the name is unreadable.
- Seat post is 27.2
- Fork is a Zeus 2000
- Welded front derailleur
- Internal housing on top tube ( 90's?)

I bought it on the bay from a guy in France. It had stickers of a red, blue and green lines over where the red paint meets the dark silver, but I took them off. I think it is an Italian frame, but it also has the Spanish fork...

The most helpful thread I've come across is this ( Who made this frame? ) so as a hunch I thought it might be a Losa factory frame? A guy at the LBS said it might have been an apprentice frame. Either way, it's really fun to ride (sorry for the dirty frame), but any info on the frame would be great!
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File Type: jpg 2017-04-09 12.14.56.jpg (90.3 KB, 157 views)
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Old 04-09-17, 01:00 PM   #2
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Is shell ISO/BSC or is it Italian thread?

Shell photo might help some readers to give information, as would an image of seat cluster.

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Old 04-09-17, 01:31 PM   #3
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The bottom bracket is Italian threading.

And here are a few more images of the seat stay, cluster and shell
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File Type: jpg 2017-04-09 15.18.50.jpg (94.0 KB, 149 views)
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Old 04-09-17, 02:19 PM   #4
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Thank you for the additonal information and imagery.

This should help someone, or three...

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Old 04-12-17, 06:43 PM   #5
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btw the headtube does not give any indication of any sticker or little holes for the badge.

Given this, the welded on front derailleur hanger, and the two holes on the top tube for internal cable routing, is it safe to say the frame is a 90's frame? Or late 80's?
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Old 04-13-17, 12:24 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by herbarium View Post
btw the headtube does not give any indication of any sticker or little holes for the badge.

Given this, the welded on front derailleur hanger, and the two holes on the top tube for internal cable routing, is it safe to say the frame is a 90's frame? Or late 80's?
Sounds like you are in the correct epoch. Keep in mind that there were braze-on front mechs in the 1950's. It is understandable that younger readers may think of internal cable routing as something "new"/"modern"; however it was fairly common going back into the 1940's and even earlier. One thing not shown in photos is whether brake mount is incasso (recessed) or exposed. One item which tends to mitigate earlier rather than later is the absence of a seat tube w/b mount.

Lugset appears to be BOCAMA Competition 75.

Good presentation of information & imagery.

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Last edited by juvela; 04-13-17 at 01:22 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 04-14-17, 04:46 AM   #7
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Sounds like you are in the correct epoch. Keep in mind that there were braze-on front mechs in the 1950's. It is understandable that younger readers may think of internal cable routing as something "new"/"modern"; however it was fairly common going back into the 1940's and even earlier. One thing not shown in photos is whether brake mount is incasso (recessed) or exposed. One item which tends to mitigate earlier rather than later is the absence of a seat tube w/b mount.

Lugset appears to be BOCAMA Competition 75.

Good presentation of information & imagery.

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Thanks for the info, I guess I fall into the "younger reader" category with all my misconceptions.

The bridge has a incasso (recessed) brake mount.

There is a columbus sticker, but there is no way of really knowing the tubing unless you strip the paint right?

And I'm almost sure the drop outs are Campagnolo 1010B.
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Old 04-14-17, 04:53 AM   #8
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one more pic
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Old 04-14-17, 06:57 AM   #9
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Thanks for the info, I guess I fall into the "younger reader" category with all my misconceptions.

The bridge has a incasso (recessed) brake mount.

There is a columbus sticker, but there is no way of really knowing the tubing unless you strip the paint right?

And I'm almost sure the drop outs are Campagnolo 1010B.
FWIW, the Columbus decal is the pre-1988 style. However, a lot of manufacturers didn't rotate their decal, so you's often see the older decal style on 1988 models and sometimes even 1989 models. if the decal is OEM, I would think that the probability of it being into the 1990s would be very small.

The decal itself is a Columbus SL or SP decal, so the frame should be full SL or SP, or the tretubi version (SL or SP only in the main tubes). It is relatively easier to verify that the frame is full Columbus SL or SP. It will use a 27.2mm seat post for SL or a 27.0mm for SP. Also, it will have a Columbus steerer tube on the fork. There will be the Columbus dove logo stamped onto the outside the steerer tube and on the inside, at the bottom, there will be five helical ridges (see photo). Of course, this assumes that the fork is OEM to the frame.
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Old 04-14-17, 07:51 AM   #10
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FWIW, the Columbus decal is the pre-1988 style. However, a lot of manufacturers didn't rotate their decal, so you's often see the older decal style on 1988 models and sometimes even 1989 models. if the decal is OEM, I would think that the probability of it being into the 1990s would be very small.

The decal itself is a Columbus SL or SP decal, so the frame should be full SL or SP, or the tretubi version (SL or SP only in the main tubes). It is relatively easier to verify that the frame is full Columbus SL or SP. It will use a 27.2mm seat post for SL or a 27.0mm for SP. Also, it will have a Columbus steerer tube on the fork. There will be the Columbus dove logo stamped onto the outside the steerer tube and on the inside, at the bottom, there will be five helical ridges (see photo). Of course, this assumes that the fork is OEM to the frame.
Ah, thanks for that info. Based on that the tubing is 27.2 so that means Columbus SL tubes.

The fork is a Zeus 2000 fork, which I don't think is OEM, because there are no other Zeus parts that came on the frame. If it was a Zeus bike, why would it use an Ofmega headset and Campy bb? (Unless someone switched that out, but why do that?) The frame does not show any ready signs of a front end crash on the top, down or headtube, so maybe it's just a fork change out.
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Old 04-14-17, 08:19 AM   #11
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Ah, thanks for that info. Based on that the tubing is 27.2 so that means Columbus SL tubes.

The fork is a Zeus 2000 fork, which I don't think is OEM, because there are no other Zeus parts that came on the frame. If it was a Zeus bike, why would it use an Ofmega headset and Campy bb? (Unless someone switched that out, but why do that?) The frame does not show any ready signs of a front end crash on the top, down or headtube, so maybe it's just a fork change out.
It would be SL based on the post size and decal but if you believe the decal to be a replacement then there are several other tubesets that use that size of post and not just Columbus. Oria was very popular with many Italian framebuilders in the late 1980s.

The Zeus 200 fork crown was available to any framebuilder, not just Zeus, so any headset could be appropriate. However, it probably is a replacement fork, given that Zeus 2000 was dropped in the early 1980s and the crown was discontinued prior to the group. If the fork isn't OEM, there's a very good probability that the headset is a replacement too.
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Old 04-14-17, 08:35 AM   #12
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It would be SL based on the post size and decal but if you believe the decal to be a replacement then there are several other tubesets that use that size of post and not just Columbus. Oria was very popular with many Italian framebuilders in the late 1980s.

The Zeus 200 fork crown was available to any framebuilder, not just Zeus, so any headset could be appropriate. However, it probably is a replacement fork, given that Zeus 2000 was dropped in the early 1980s and the crown was discontinued prior to the group. If the fork isn't OEM, there's a very good probability that the headset is a replacement too.
Good to know about Oria. I don't think the deal is a replacement, looks too old. You may be right about the headset replacement.

Looking up at the fork there are no Columbus stamps or ridges. However, you can see the BCM stamp on the lug that connects the headtube to the downtube, so thanks to juvela for that!
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Old 04-14-17, 08:44 AM   #13
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Also, I did an etching of the dropouts, which definitely are Shimano, not campy as I previously thought. You can see the "MANO" at the end plus the E figure which is this dropout shown Scooper in this thread (80ís era Schwinn Paramount)

So this frame has:

BCM Competition 75 lugs
Zeus 2000 fork crown (possible fork replacement)
Shimano dropouts
Columbus SL tubing (most likely)
Italian threaded bottom bracket shell

What frame builder does this?
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Old 04-14-17, 12:37 PM   #14
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Thank you for the additional information and photos.

Was going to post that the dropouts did not look like the Campag 1010B but then when I got down to the latest post see that you have sorted it on your own. The thing which struck me as different was the rectangular shape of the blister for the dropout adjusting screw. Also the 1010B set shown at VB exhibits holes for the portacatena feature. The closeup of the dropout gives the frame detectives another piece of information. The junction of the seat stay to the dropout shows a fishmouth treatment while that of the chainstay to the dropout shows a "chisel" one.



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Old 04-16-17, 09:26 AM   #15
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This is so good so far.

Maybe another point to help identify is the eyelets (?) for the internal cable routing located on the top tube.

They seem pretty standard though.
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Old 04-17-17, 10:02 AM   #16
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Thank you for the additional image.

In the detailed discussion of the fork one item not yet mentioned is the ends. Are they a match for those on the rear or are they perhaps Zeus?

One simple check which could be made is to measure the brake centres. Would expect rear to be 47mm. Is front the same as rear? Is fork incasso like bridge?

Be stern spacing 126 or be it 130?

Thank you.

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Old 04-17-17, 04:19 PM   #17
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-----

Thank you for the additional image.

In the detailed discussion of the fork one item not yet mentioned is the ends. Are they a match for those on the rear or are they perhaps Zeus?

One simple check which could be made is to measure the brake centres. Would expect rear to be 47mm. Is front the same as rear? Is fork incasso like bridge?

Be stern spacing 126 or be it 130?

Thank you.

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The stern spacing is 126mm.

The fork ends are not labeled. The brake hole is incasso like the bridge.

I'm not sure what you mean by the brake centers?
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Old 04-17-17, 05:29 PM   #18
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herbarium wrote -

"I'm not sure what you mean by the brake centers?"

with 700 size wheels in frame, distance from centre of braking surface on rim to centre of brake mount hole.

the 126 dimension tends to place it more in the early part of your suggested time range.

Fork ends can sometimes be identified by their shape. Markings can get removed to polishing/filing.
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Old 04-21-17, 07:05 AM   #19
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-----

herbarium wrote -

"I'm not sure what you mean by the brake centers?"

with 700 size wheels in frame, distance from centre of braking surface on rim to centre of brake mount hole.

the 126 dimension tends to place it more in the early part of your suggested time range.

Fork ends can sometimes be identified by their shape. Markings can get removed to polishing/filing.
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Ah, I always thought of that as the break reach. The fork and the back both measure 47mm.

And I've attached a pic of the fork ends.

Along with one more pic the the rear dropouts and chainstays. You can see that the end of the driveside chainstay is crimped, while the non-driveside is not crimped. Any ideas why? Is it so that there is more clearance for the rear derailleur?
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Old 04-21-17, 07:57 AM   #20
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Regarding flatted right side stays -

This is done for clearance of chain when using small cog on gear block.

Contrast this with the domed ends seen on many lower priced british production cycles. The stay ends get galled by the chain.

Thank you for the additional images and information.

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Old 04-21-17, 11:43 AM   #21
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-----

Regarding flatted right side stays -

This is done for clearance of chain when using small cog on gear block.

Contrast this with the domed ends seen on many lower priced british production cycles. The stay ends get galled by the chain.

Thank you for the additional images and information.

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Nice, good to know that.

I also took some measurements of the frame geometry, mostly from this photo (you can also see how I've set up the bike), but I also measured it with a tape measure and the compass app on my phone (can do angles).

Maybe the frame geometry is helpful in finding what kind of frame it is?
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Old 04-21-17, 11:44 AM   #22
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Nice, good to know that.

I also took some measurements of the frame geometry, mostly from this photo (you can also see how I've set up the bike), but I also measured it with a tape measure and the compass app on my phone (can do angles).

Maybe the frame geometry is helpful in finding what kind of frame it is?
with pic
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