Porschefan

Thanks, Chombi. See my long-winded update below. Now question is 26.4 or 27 mm crown race diameter?

STP

unworthy1

the A-9 on eBay looks like it could be a great deal, but it's $19 shipping from Mexico, so...keep that in mind if you bid. This seems to be a later model/version that has cups shaped a bit more like the Delta (seems to be called "Direction" which is a new one to me) but from what I can see the guts are indeed needle bearings and probably the same as all the other Stronglights that use them.
I think the Miche seems like an even better deal and a brand that should be a little easier to find locally, the only thing I wonder is how you tighten the lock nut: maybe a pair of flats under the top rubber seal? I'd bet it's ISO (meaning British/Italian/Asian compatible) since that's what most of Miche's stuff is...since your friend has determined your Vitus has British threading on the fork steerer, you can pick from hundreds of HS and most will fit, BUT you need to consider the stack-height and get one that's the same as your B-10 or shorter and add a washer/spacer to compensate.
The classic A-9 is listed as having a 40mm stack, but sometimes as 37mm so there might be a range or some inaccurate measuring. The B-10 is even taller at 43mm according to Velobase. The Miche is 38mm so it's probably going to work but may need a spacer (which might spoil the "aero" look).
And again, ISO would be 26.4 and so 99% the one you'd need...27.0 is JIS standard and 99% sure NOT used on a Vitus fork. BUT Check first!

Porschefan

Raymond--thanks for the input, but my description was bad. I was referring to the "bond" between the steel portion of the steerer and aluminum fork. The stem itself hadn't quite reached the point molecularly bonding itself to the steerer--I'd probably still be there with a hacksaw if so.

Here's a pic of what I meant:



STP

Porschefan

NOTE: this is a cut-and-paste of a message I sent to my friend who's helping me on the current developments....breaking news....!!!

Here's how it happened.... After brain cramps started setting in, I thought I had better get at least a little better understanding of the problem. Trying to figure out what might or might not work made it apparent that I had WAY too many not- and/or mis-understood concepts on the whole thing. So I looked at a bunch of diagrams and read a couple of articles and some of the fog started to lift to the point where I suspected that the missing race might still be in the FORK CROWN RACE on the headtube. I went out to the garage and checked, and voila--there it was, nicely stuck, via grease, in said race

BTW, actually looking (highly recommended) at the bike also revealed that the "bulbous, black thingie" -- that I thought might have a mate--is the Delrin (?) cap/seal that keeps things covered up at both ends of the head tube--and the bottom one is still there. I feel much better now.

So, as regards the headset options, here's how I see it now.

1. Just put the damn thing back together--even using the bunged up lock nut until a nicer one can be found at an affordable price.

2. As in 1., but use the brand new bearing kits. Also possibly buy the Paramount eBay nut and use that.

3. Pursue a good quality, affordable, replacement headset. This brings up another question/mystery for me. Seems there are TWO common sizes for the fork crown race--the piece that gets pressed into the head tube--for 1" threaded headsets: 26.4mm and 27mm. Do you know or can we measure something to see which is suitable for the Vitus? I've also read that since the head tube is aluminum, great care has to be exercised in replacing the crown race and upper head tube race. I'm sure you are aware of and can handle that, but I'm not sure which size needs to be spec'd.

So far there are a couple possibilities on replacements.

1. The Miche Primato headset with needle bearings. These seem to have the 26.4mm crown race diameter.

2. There is, apparently anyway, a NOS Stronglight A9 on eBay. This is like gold IF it is for real. Problem is the seller is in Mexico and has very little feedback. He's got an eBay store and item is marked as covered by eBay Buyer Protection. I sent him a message and got a replay saying that it is, indeed NOS and "still in the box." I have no clue as to what it might go for. The only other vintage A9 on eBay is at Buy It Now price of $120.00. I'm going to try and get more data from the seller--including the crown race diameter.

I'm making progress, albeit slowly and somewhat painfully.

STP

Porschefan

Thanks Unworthy (quite a misnomer, IMHO ). I just posted a long update and you've supplied some answers already.

I've heard from the seller and he seems legit. I'm going to correspond some more and see if I can get more details. Of course, I haven't any clue what it might be bid up to or whether there's a reserve on it. And the $19 shipping cost and long shipping time are considerations too. That said, if it can be gotten cheaply, probably not a bad idea to get it irregardless. Start building up my V&C stash!

Two questions:

1. How do I measure the stack height?

2. Does the headset stack height affect the fit--of the rider to the bike I mean. I did read somewhere that getting the incorrect stack height will make a headset un-installable in some cases. So I should nail that down for the Vitus.

Are spacers readily available for this kind of application?

I have a Park digital caliper--what do I need to measure? Inside diameter of the steerer? What should it be? From what I've read the races are press-fit into the headtube and are a couple 10th's of mm bigger than the tube.

Thanks again for the input!

STP

raymond1354

Quote:

Now that it's out--it is definitely steel. Says "Made in France" on it. It's somehow bonded to the aluminum fork crown/fork about 3/4" above the crown. Don't know how they did that?

STP

Oops and capiche.

You're wondering how they made the bond between the fork crown and the steerer. Obviously it can't be a mechanical bond or welded (brazed, etc.) because of the galvanic thing and there must be an insulator separating the 2 metals. On the Statue of Liberty they used shellac which worked pretty good for a long time, but eventually broke down.

I found the patent application which you might find amusing

https://vitus979.com/wp-content/uploa.../US4479662.pdf

Seems that they put a "cone" on the ends of the tubes and a reciprocal "cone" on the "bearing" component. The two cones fit together (male and female) so they could slide them together without pushing their "adhesive" ( in this case epoxy not shellac) out the other end. This would leave a thin film of insulator (epoxy) between the 2 metals and bond it.

Question is: If the shellac on the S of L lasted a hundred years, how long will the epoxy last?

r

N.B., This is the type of question when we really miss someone like Jobst Brandt.

Bandera

I re-tested mine again this week on a route I've ridden for years, so far so good......sometime in the next 70 years or so someone else will have to take over the testing......

That being said a careful inspection of any C&V frameset when overhauling is a good idea, no frameset is immortal and old race bikes may have been put through it under big loads/stresses.

-Bandera

raymond1354

The corrosion will be internal, you won't see it.

r

Bandera

I'll just have to risk it then.

Examining the entire frameset carefully instead of assuming that everything is just fine is a good plan, and one I've followed for decades on steel, AL and now CF framesets.
Not every failure point is visible, but not looking at all tube joints or performing static tests like locking the front brake and loading up the fork/headset and the crank/BB may not be a waste of time. Clean, look and listen.



Race machines, unless you buy one from Captain Fast who doesn't venture out of the Starbucks parking lot, may have been subject to big loads/stress and crashes: Caveat Emptor.

-Bandera

raymond1354

I'm just say'n that it is a high risk joint and a joint which is not possible to inspect. Fork failures on these bikes and at that joint are known.

r

Bandera

Really, "known"?
Have you actually owned a 979 and had a fork joint failure?
Have you seen a failed fork on a Vitus 979 w/ a fork joint failure?
How exactly do you "know" about these "failures"?
Inter-web rumor, innuendo, conjecture, osmosis or psychic intervention perhaps?

My teammates back when never experienced a fork joint failure (and some were very experienced with Joints), and mine was still good this week after decades of service including a few podiums back when.
Actual long term use after a competition career are what I base my assessment on and will ride mine again with little trepidation next week and into the foreseeable future, with the afore mentioned examinations as done w/ any of my machines.

Please elucidate your "knowledge" of failure with primary sources.

PS: Never ever buy a used 979 from that Kelly guy, it may not be a pristine example.



-Bandera

unworthy1

measure the base OD of the steerer right above the fork crown, you have to remove the crown race if it's still on the crown, but SOMEtimes the size is actually stamped right on the crownrace. I'm still almost 100% certain that your fork uses a 26.4 crownrace and you don't have to measure anything.
Spacers (washers) for 1" HS are easy to find, you can get silver, black and even exotic materials (like titanium) and exotic color anodizing (like "rasta"), your LBS should have some but online sellers will for sure.
The stack heights are often published so you don't need to measure, but finding the specs can sometimes be a challenge: some manufacturers don't think this info is that important, but it IS. Sutherlands has a pretty extensive list of stack heights for most vintage HS.

Porschefan

Thanks. My buddy says 26.4 it is. He also has the proper Park tools for headset work, so looks like all is good. He mentioned that he's had good luck with the really inexpensive Tange steel headsets (~$20) but that the Miche Primato would work well, as well as just reinstalling the original and looking for a better lock nut. So the problem has morphed into a whole bunch of opportunities.

STP

repechage

I would buy one from Mr. Kelly if it was his size and he signed it, even if it was French countryside filthy... Maybe even more so... There have been P-R winning bikes that did Not get washed afterwards...

Chombi

Never heard or seen any Vitus 979 fork failures since I've been looking at these bikes when I first encountered them in the early-mid 80s'
Haven't seen a 979 with frame bond failures either. Sure there are real stories of frame failures, but I think they are mostly either abused bikes or the normal amount of defective bikes that could come from any company, making any type of bicycles.... Vitus bikes had more than proven themselves just by the fact that very many had survived and are still being ridden by their owners happily after all the decades since they were made.
Here's an interesting article regarding restoring a 979 and reflections.opinions from the owner about the Vitus 979......
1986 Vitus 979 Duralinox Mk I

top506

'That Kelly guy' is the main reason I go interested in getting a 979 to play with.

Top

unworthy1

the Tange Levin (he probably refers to) is one the true bargains in the world of bike parts: quality and reliability for around $20, it can't be beat...looks are decent, too.

An aside about the Vitus frames' durability debate (that I have NO personal experience in): there WAS an outfit in B.C. Canada that were specialists in repair of Vitus frames, they re-bonded standard aluminum joints as well as Carbon hybrid frames and had a few factory "headtube" assemblies for sale as well. They seem to be out of business now, but though I'm sure they didn't service a LOT of frames, they had to have enough that needed re-gluing to develop expertise. Can't recall the outfits name, but it may come to me later...just for historical trivia's sake.
Ah yes: it's Guywires.com
https://www.guywires.com/vitusmain.htm

Porschefan

Cool link! I sent them an email just to check, but it doesn't look like the site is active--at least as far as Vitus goes.

STP

raymond1354

Apparently these guys also did a lot, as well.

https://www.hhbicycles.net/frame-repairs/

r

Bandera

Race bikes are crashed with sometimes disturbing brio.

Crashes cause Damage.

Some damage could/can be repaired.

Steel framesets could/can be repaired by local frame builders.

Bonded AL, Titanium and CF require(d) a specialized facility for repair.

When a popular race frame type is no longer used in competition crash damage becomes rare, specialized repair facilities become idle.

Race bikes remain in useful service for years as obsolescent, obsolete, old, and eventually Classic & Vintage.

Caveat Emptor

-Bandera

Oldpeddaller

Bandera just said it all

Happy to report no problem with my Vitus frame joints, just a notchy Campagnolo Chorus headset that's probably been run over tightened by the PO. Otherwise it's a dream of a bike - light, supple, smooth ride. I'm probably not 'powerful' enough any more to worry about losing power through frame flex - when I increase cadence it surges forward - very happy with that! Also I find I can run a bigger chain ring than on my heavier bikes without getting any more tired - 54T big ring vs 52T - not sure how that works, but it's good for me.

top506

I thought that the frame flex issues wouldn't affect me, either, until a long, fast decent in strong cross winds sent the bike dancing under me-it felt as if the two wheels wanted to take different lines. It doesn't keep me from riding my 979, though.

Top

Bandera

Yep, you've owned a 979.

A calm demeanor, a light/firm touch and a positive outlook on where you want the beast to go should have been in the operator's manual, the French assumed that fatalism combined with supplesse would get one through nicely enough. Perhaps Douglas Adams was a 979 rider: "Don't Panic" indeed.

-Bandera