jmeb

You should probably qualify your statements with "IANAL" (I am not a lawyer)...since well, you're not. Renters may sign strong liability waivers, Spinster may cover those who rent bikes with insurance/legal support etc.

I can see not being interested if one collects high-end, irreplaceable bikes. But for those of us who find joy in the everyman's frames and components, this is an intriguing way to help out / provide a service / get to know, bike-interested travelers.

Looking forward to hearing more reports. My stable regularly gets cleaned out on the weekends by friends and families as we ride around Denver to breweries. It is one of the few ways I can currently justifying having a half dozen plus bikes.

thenomad

At $30 a day for a bike that could sell for $300 means that to get your money's worth you'd need to rent it more than 10 times. One the bike has "paid for itself" then its making money in my eyes and if something happens and it disappears then at last I'd feel better.

BUT

10 rentals? I'm thinking after 10 rentals I'd be looking at some adjustments and some wear and tear service.
Locking up to posts by 10 renters? I dont want to know what the wear would be!

If I lived in a high traffic area I can imagine just buying a family set of wally worlds best and seeing if it pans out.

Lascauxcaveman 

From the website's FAQ:
[h=3]What if someone gets injured or damages property while renting my ride?
[/h]Before confirming any reservation, the renter has to sign our Spinlister Rental Agreement. This agreement offers you protection in both of these circumstances, injury or damage. As the lister, you are never responsible if the renter gets injured while on a ride. Still, do us all a solid and always make sure your ride is tuned up for a safe ride!

Anyone suppose that counts for anything?

gugie 

How does Splinster account for the quality of bike-is there any vetting of the renter?

The Thin Man 

Thanks for posting this discussion, Lascauxcaveman. I have also been considering Spinlister for mid/low level frames as a way to see some sporadic income. I have also thought about paring the service up with different U-Lock's that mate things like intelligent locking technology, solar charging and GPS so I can have even more piece of mind. Or for those renters who I have dealt with before, a way to harness the bike at a certain location so they can pick the bike up when it is convenient for them and so I don't have to deal with them in person while I am at my "real job."

I think for bikes that are lower (to lower-mid) end, this is a fine arrangement. Think about it. For us, these are inexpensive, plentiful bikes that we bypass day after day on Craigslist that are decent Japanese bikes from the 80's with gobs of life left in them. People venturing into our cities want to enjoy the surroundings by bicycle and on (Protected? Buffered?) bike lanes. These are not aficionado's like our ilk, they are just people who want a nicely tuned vintage bike that is safe to ride and responds with whatever action they choose. What's funny is, these are the types of people that even want things like turkey levers and stem shifters and lucky us, those lower end bikes already come with them! They don't have to be show bikes, just nice looking/riding machines that someone can ride with confidence.

Comments, so far, are thought provoking so I'll certainly be watching this one closely!

KonAaron Snake 

I'd need to see the agreement, but the answer is that they don't prevent a lawsuit, so the legal fees are still potentially there, and gross negligence typically wouldn't be covered. You also still likely have third party liability.

Here's how it works (and it can vary by state, but most are pretty similar regarding negligence) - let's say the renter, John, hits Amy. John signed hold harmless and indemnification language agreeing to pay any damages you or spinster are owed. Amy sues everyone. How that responsibilty gets divided up depends on the state, the judge/jury and the particulars, but let's say you end up owing $5000, john owes $5000 and Spinster owes $5000. Amy gets a judgement against you for $5000. You now have to enforce the agreement to get that covered by Spinster or John (depending on the agreement). If John or Spinster don't have insurance, good luck. But that doesn't eliminate your judgement with Amy.

Additionally there is potentially some joint and several liability where all of you are on the hook to Amy. Let's say John and Spinster are bankrupt by the time of settlement, but you have a nice second home. Amy can try to recoup all of the judgement, $15,000 from you. It's now up to you to collect from john and spinster. The level of this liability depends on the state.

Generally speaking, it's the additional insured aspect of a policy that offers the real protection and you need the legal language in order to force the hand. Limits of liability and indemnifications are nice, but they aren't absolute protection...often they just help leverage a settlement. The bottom line is that I can agree to pay you to cover your damages if you get sued, but unless I have assets, or am insured, what's that agreement worth?

MDfive21

thanks for posting the discussion! i've been looking at CL and LBS for bikes to rent or borrow in portland this summer.

bikingshearer 

Holy crap, that language is an invitation to disaster. And if they got that advice from a lawyer, it is malpractice. You may not be liable as a "lister," but you sure as hell are as an actual renter. No two ways about it. And reducing making sure the rented bike is safe to being an optional "solid" to do for someone - well, the mind simply boggles at the stupidity of that. One bad accident will be enough to destroy a company with so cavalier an attitude about safety. No waiver in the world will protect that kind of attitude. I strongly advise everyone here not to to put yourself in the position of being dragged down with them.

Another point to consider, even if you are relatively asset-free. Civil judgments, at least in California, are good for ten years and can be renewed for another ten years (all it takes is a simple form filed in the court where the judgment was issued - it is simple and all but automatic). So even if you are "judgment proof" now, do you really want stay poor or part of the gray economy for the next 20 years?

I can't speak to the length of time a judgment lasts in other states, but I would be very surprised if most didn't have similar timelines. In any event, my thoughts remain the same - just don't do it.

mparker326

Some of y'all are pretty paranoid.

The Thin Man 

I totally agree, mparker.

I don't restore bikes for a living. In "real life" I run a bike share program of 250 bicycles (soon to be 400). The Copenhagenize blog put out a graph that perfectly sums up public bike share and, to some degree, this entire conversation. Relax guys. It's just people riding bikes.

Lascauxcaveman 

Well, these happy two-wheeled travelers just came back through the door, a bit weary and dusty, but none the worse for wear on initial inspection.



The only complaint from the renters was the FD shifter got a little loose on the Peugeot, so the guy had to ride the big ring all day today (ass-backwards LeTech FD) He just about cried when I showed him the D-ring to adjust shifter drag. Get a cell phone, dude! You could have called me! The 48/28 big/big combo actually works fine on this bike, so he wasn't hurting too bad, I guess. They weren't taking on any crazy hills today. You can see by the slammed saddles these guys would have been happier on smaller bikes. They probably should have stuck with MTBs they originally booked. Que sera, sera.

Anyhoo, no lawsuits (yet) and the renters were hardy, hale and healthy at drop off time. Spinlister says they'll be dropping $89.10 in my PayPal account in the next day or two. That's $108 minus their cut.

This time, at least, the system worked as it's supposed to

The Thin Man 

Nice work! A few more of these and you'll have paid for the bikes and be making straight profit. Sorta like renting a house.
Great to hear things went well!

bikingshearer 

I do not see boogey-men under the bed, nor do I think the average driver is out to get me. But I have seen the kind of sh*tstorms that can and do happen when bad things happen. Especially when bad things happen that could have been anticipated but were not planned for. That isn't paranoia. It's life experience.

KonAaron Snake 

Don't bother...hopefully they're lucky and they'll never have to deal with the downside of their risk management decisions.

iab

What risk management?

You can have someone sign all the legaleze you want. As you said, it will not prevent legal proceedings.

KonAaron Snake 

That's what the insurance part is for (and the legalese does leverage settlements and can determine judgements). Legalese can also limit proceedings (obviously not for third party liability). You need the correct coverages for any real protection...or a partner with assets.

It doesn't eliminate risk, it reduces it. The only way to eliminate risk is not to engage in the activity - which is what my choice would be here.

I wonder who is responsible for flat tires in these rentals?

Lascauxcaveman 

Dunno if it's clearly spelled out in the user agreement, but I sent them out with spare tubes, tools and a pump. They said they new how to fix a flat, but since the guy didn't even know how to use a D-ring tensioner, I kinda have my doubts.

I also appreciate your comments in re liability and am reconsidering my participation in this program.

lostarchitect 

Ok, send one of your bikes to me here in NYC and I'll rent it out via Spinlister for a couple months. Sound good?

iab

I don't know. Seems the car rental business is fraught with more risk. A car can certainly do more damage. It seems for their large cut, Splinster should provide the insurance.

KonAaron Snake 

The question is over whether or not they are. I doubt it.

Your car rental comparison is interesting - in that model doesn't the renter buy, or provide the insurance while the car is being used? I am fairly sure that our auto policy covers us while driving a rental (or temporarily borrowing a friend's car). I know insurance rules can vary by state, but I think that's standard. I think they also all try and get you to buy a policy from them, or their affiliates, when you rent the car.

I'm sure the rental agencies also have supplemental policies in place in case something goes seriously wrong.

miamijim

Until someone tightens the front skewer too much and becomes a quadriplegic.....

rootboy 

I'm gonna do myself a solid and forget this whole idea.

iab

What are the chances? Please compare to hitting the lotto.

KonAaron Snake 

The thing is there isn't much reward here.

I have no idea what the actual probabilities are, but I would think the chance for an issue is pretty significant. There are a considerable number of bike injuries every year, and if it happens while they're using your bike, I think it's likely that the renter wil see damages or inconvenience. Then you have more boring, but very possible stuff like theft, minor repairs, etc. There are just too many careless people around, especially when it's not their property.

To me the small rewards makes that kind of risk a non-starter. If they had the proper insurance and language, it would possibly change the equation, but it still seems like a lot of risk for not much reward.

I'm no actuary - what do I know?

miamijim

Much better than hitting lotto...

Trek recalls nearly 1 million bikes for safety issue - Apr. 22, 2015