justin10054

Here it is, basically a stock '72 International:





I like this bike a lot and enjoy riding it as is, but I've been reading back issues of Bicycle Quarterly and it's making me want to set this bike up for long-distance rides in the countryside. I want to keep it fairly period correct, but I'm not too hung up on precise dates.

Right now I'm thinking:

• TA Cyclotouriste (or equivalent) crankset
• Long-cage RD (Campy Rally or Huret Jubilee or ???)
• Compass 38mm tires (I'm pretty sure they'll fit)
• Front rack and handlebar bag (this one looks like it'd be fairly easy to set up)
• I can't decide if I should stick with downtube shifters or try Suntour Barcons
• Maybe fenders, but to be honest, they kind of scare me

I don't know anything about this kind of stuff, so I'm totally open to suggestions. Should I stick with the Record hubs or move on to something needlessly heavy duty like Phil Wood? Are Campy bar end shifters really as useless as everyone says?

What else should I do?

JohnDThompson 

A TA crank would be nice, but they tend to be pricey these days. Otherwise, Stronglight, Sugino, Sakae Ringyo, Shimano, and others have vintage cranks that would offer wider range gearing than the current Record crank.

You could convert your current Campagnolo rear derailleur to a wide-range derailleur with an aftermarket long cage, such as the one Soma offers:



Wider tires would be nice; if the 38mm wide tires fit, by all means use them.

SunTour bar-end shifters are much nicer than Campagnolo's bar ends or even their downtube levers. If you can find some Simplex retrofriction downtube levers, those would be very good as well. I've never had a problem with Campagnolo hubs, but if you can afford the Phils and building new wheels around them, they're probably stronger. And I'd certainly want to use fenders, even if it means having to go to a slightly narrower tire. They make a big difference when riding in sloppy conditions, and will help protect your nice leather saddle from water damage.

big chainring 

Cork, twine, and goop from the lac bug.

MZilliox

First off, rad bike!
I think you are on the right track. But also, I see nothing wrong with it as it sits... put a carradice seat bag in back there... and its ready to roll.
question:
what about the crankset needs to be changed? changing to a triple? or keeping it a double? just a wider range of gears?
Thoughts:
I much prefer bar end shifting to down tube shifting, just makes more sense.
Your bike may not handle well with front rack and bag if the geo isn't built for it. It may handle just fine too.
Leave the fenders off until you have a need for them. when you do decide to get some, it better be your best install ever, flimsy fenders suck. you will love your fenders.

If you are after a triple, PM me, I may have something stronglight or TA kicking around here in triple configurations

davester

TA Cyclotouriste (or equivalent) crankset Expensive. What I did was get a Red Clover triplizer, TA small chainring and Phil Wood BB (though I hear that a cheap Shimano will work just fine).That will allow you to keep the classic Campy cranks and a greater degree of originality on a classic bike.

• Long-cage RD (Campy Rally or Huret Jubilee or ???) I got a Soma cage as noted above. The Rally would be nice but uber expensive. The Jubilee is too delicate for that use IMHO.
• Compass 38mm tires (I'm pretty sure they'll fit) I'm skeptical that they'd fit between the chainstays. 32 mm would fit for sure.
• Front rack and handlebar bag (this one looks like it'd be fairly easy to set up) Sure
• I can't decide if I should stick with downtube shifters or try Suntour Barcons Whatever you're comfortable with. I like barcons though they are a bit "squishy" and I'm perfectly happy with downtube shifters, though perhaps because that's pretty much all I've ever used for 40+ years.
• Maybe fenders, but to be honest, they kind of scare me Scare you? Are you going to ride where it rains with any regularity? If so you need fenders. If not don't bother.

I don't know anything about this kind of stuff, so I'm totally open to suggestions. Should I stick with the Record hubs or move on to something needlessly heavy duty like Phil Wood? I'm still using my record hubs daily that came off my '72 International and have toured fully loaded with rear panniers full of camping gear for 1000s of miles through Europe and the US on them. They are still as smooth as silk. Once in a great while I break a rear axle when I hit a bad pothole as a result of running a 7-speed freewheel (long unsupported axle length). Pre-7-speed I never had breakages. Those hubs are as bulletproof as you'll find anywhere.

Bandera

You have a highly versatile British club rider's bike which is designed for exactly that task.

If the OEM 52/42 crankset is geared too tall any of @JohnDThompson recommendations would work fine although our shop installed a lot of Sugino triples w/ SunTour GT or Shimano Crane GS rear derails to make a P-15-ish clone for serious century + gents "back when". I used a Shimano Deore triple when my Internat'l was last in LD mode 20 or so years ago, you will need the correct BB if you swap cranksets.

I can (barely) fit 32mm Paselas w/ mudguards on mine, fenders are a must for long distances in less than perfect conditions.
Mine came off in the drought months.

A traditional Carradice seatbag was/is the lightweight luggage choice for British Audax types on long self supported rides rather than the French HB bag.
The front rack you pictured does not have a decaleur, look at Velo Orange's website for proper HB bag installation. VO is a good source for most anything this bike needs for LD riding.



-Bandera

icepick_trotsky 

I have a Set of velo orange crankarms for sale in the classified section that are a TA copy. PM me if you're interested.

nlerner

I have 32mm tires and fenders on my '71 Int'l, and that's as wide as it'll go. I have it set up with front racks and bags, as well as a Wald wire basket, but I think it handles better with a rear load (like a big-ole Carradice). Currently, it's set up with a Stronglight 99 crankset with 48/32t rings.

devinfan

I don't want to be a spoil-sport, but I think your Raleigh looks perfect as it sits, and already perfect for long country rides. There are enough Faux Rando bikes out there, but maybe not enough nicely preserved bikes like yours. Dare to resist the trends...

gugie 

To start, welcome! You have a beautiful bike! I have an International as well, maybe a year apart. Please note that it appears there can be significant differences between bikes that are nominally of the same model and year. For example, mine has extremely long chainstays compared to others. One thing you should do is measure the distance between the rear hub and the center of the bottom bracket/cranks. The shorter it is, the smaller the maximum tire size. Conversely, most would tell you that 42mm wide tires won't fit, even if you go 650b. I can run those on mine regardless of where on the horizontal dropouts I place the wheel, and that includes 52mm wide fenders! Others have to keep a maximum of 35mm on their tires to safely run fenders. It would seem that International forks are wide enough for 42's @650B, but you should check with a built up wheels. Before you start any modifications, get a set of wheels with the tires you want to use and put them on the frame. Borrow them if need be. Go to a C&V friendly LBS and ask if you could check with a set of their wheels. If you live near me, come over with your frame, I can help! Maybe you don't, but live near another one of us friendly, but crotchety old farts who watch the movie Gran Torino and wonder what all the fuss is about? (Chas, you reading this?)

Justin, the first thing I'd do is add your location to your profile, also your overall shape. This would make a difference in what we'd suggest. For example, if you live in Los Angeles, I'd probably tell you that fenders won't be as useful as, say, Boston. A triple won't be much use in St. Louis, Missouri, whereas Vail, Colorado would be much more useful. If you can keep up with Jan Heine on just about any ride, the granny might never be used.

Having said that, it would seem you're either drawn to the romance of vintage parts, or believe them to be superior to the modern alternatives. I'll go down your list and comment:

• TA Cyclotouriste (or equivalent) cranksets Others have commented that these are very expensive. Not so. If you're willing to bid at eBay france, a set of 50/40/30 TA Cyclotouriste cranksets went foor $80 today (plus ~$25$ shipping to US). This is less expensive than, say Rivendell's "go-to" triple at $146. But if you need/want a 24t granny gear, you're pretty much stuck with new, modern cranks. If you want the vintage look, TA or Stronglight cranks are fine. Or you could go new and vintage look with Rene Herse cranks. Jan will be >$400 happier if you went that way...but they sure are purty!
• Long-cage RD (Campy Rally or Huret Jubilee or ? Long cage Huret Jubilees are extremely beautiful, and should be worn as jewelery, IMO. But they are very rare, probably because most of the long cage versions ended up wrapped around spokes from agressive shifters. Campy Rally is quite beautiful as well, but the consensus is they shift like crap. If you want a good, vintage derailleur, search out a long cage Sun Tour Cyclone-first version, IMO. Beauty and functional. Front Cyclones work great on triples as well. Otherwise, lots of very durable modern options are available.
• Compass 38mm tires (I'm pretty sure they'll fit) Good choice.
• Front rack and handlebar bag (this one looks like it'd be fairly easy to set up. I had a handlebar bag back in the 70's, loved having everything right at hand. If you go that way, you're going to possibly want to rerake the forks for a low trail ride. Now you're really into modifying the bike. Alternatively, the large saddle bag style that many have advocated in this post are a great way to haul stuff around as well. Front handlebar bags are what I'd call a french style, rear saddle bags are more english. I've ridden both ways and liked them both, but have a preference for handlebar bags. Your weight distribution is already heavy in the back, putting your schwag in the front helps balance things out a bit.
• I can't decide if I should stick with downtube shifters or try Suntour Barcons I like bar end shifters. Modern versions are readily available. If you're less flexible than you were a few decades ago, bar ends are great. And if you're still young of body, I put a pair on a bike when I was 17 and loved them, and the was in the mid-70's.
• Maybe fenders, but to be honest, they kind of scare me If you live in an area with plentiful rain, don't be scared! Your International has plenty of room for them, plastic or metal. If you can't find an LBS who knows how to properly mount a set of fenders, you probably live in an area that doesn't need them.

top506

I can recommend both the Red Clover tripleizer and the Soma long cage:



Top

randyjawa 

Yup. That's the way I see it also.

rhm

+1.

If you need wider range, get the Soma campy conversion plates and a bigger freewheel. There's nothing wrong with a TA crank, but don't fool yourself to think it's really any different from what you already have.

As for fenders, all my bikes have them. I don't like riding without them. But that's me. If you don't like them, move along!

I'm undecided about whether bar end shifters are any better than downtube shifters. It depends on this and that. But again, even if we stipulate that one is better than the other, don't kid yourself that the difference is very great. It isn't.

The only really effective way to make your bike into a randonneuring bike is to sign up for, and ride, some randonees. Go for it! It's fun. It's easy, until it isn't. If it isn't, well, it's probably not the bike that's holding you back.

VintageRide

Here is my 1984 Raleigh Gran Tour which has the fast taper chain stays like your International with no indentations on the inside and fit some V.O. 45mm fenders -had to cut where it met the chain stay for clearance but quite easy to do. Six speed 14 - 34 freewheel ( 126mm rear spacing, you are probably 120mm on the International ) with Sugino 34/48 crank set gives a pretty decent gear range. The derailleur is a late '80's Shimano DX. This particular frame fits 35mm Soma New Xpress 700C tires with room to spare. Brakes and levers are Tektro and work very well, as much as I like vintage brake levers the Tektros feel and work better, in fact with Kool Stop pads the Gran Tour is very easy to stop even going fast. Just showing it to give you any possible ideas - the bike shifts quite nicely too with Shimano 600 down tube shifters. I tend to favor rando handlebars as well - V.O. makes a nice one although the Gran Tour has some old Cinelli 42 cm on it at the moment. I also used toe clips and straps but now prefer wearing some decent regular foot wear along with a nice wide pedal, in this case a MKS Sylvan but there are others. I just find them more comfortable even on longer rides but of course you may have other ideas which is fine since I am one of those older farts mentioned earlier.

devinfan

Okay, I lied a little bit, I do want to be a spoil-sport. I imagine this bike sitting there thinking "man, I somehow managed to survive the fixie craze, was just about to settle down for a nice evening ride, and now I'm about to get velo-oranged, rando'd and re-raked. Out of the frying pan and into the fire." Don't do it, brother. Sometimes in life you accomplish more by what you don't do than what you do. Leave the poor thing alone.

USAZorro

I also agree with the rando bars. The shallower drop gives more usable hand positions for most riders.
I'd consider either relocating the pump to the top tube, or replacing it with something you can stash in the bag. That would give room for 2nd bottle cage.
If you ever decide to go with clipless pedals, consider ones that have platforms on one side.

The bike is yours, and beautiful. The opinions are mine and might not seem as such to you.

justin10054

A lot of good suggestions here. First, for those of you telling me to leave it as is, relax. I'm not going to do anything irreversible to the bike or throw away parts or anything crazy like that. I'm really just looking to have some fun trying out different parts and seeing what else is out there. I can always put things back the way they were.

As for triple-izers, I'm not really looking for a granny gear. The main reason I'm looking at the TA and other 50.4 BCD cranksets is the wide range of gearing options. I'm thinking a 38-48 would be a good place to start. I don't think I need to go to a triple and I'm pretty sure 38t would get me up most hills.

Would adding a long cage to the Nuovo Record RD allow me to run bigger cogs on the freewheel or would it only serve to pick up the chain slack on smaller chainrings? Would I need that on a 38t chainring?

I'm currently using 32mm Paselas and I still have about 8-10mm of chainstay clearance on either side of the tire. Brake, seatstay, and fork clearances are ample. I think moving up to 38mm tires depends on whether or not I decide to mount fenders. The article in the fall issue of BQ kind of has me spooked about putting on fenders. I'm worried I won't be able to mount them properly without having to resort to a bunch of ugly clamps or zip ties or something. I tend to avoid riding in the rain, but I do occasionally have to ride through puddles and I have been caught in surprise thunderstorms before.

As for Barcons, I've never used them so I'm not really sure what to expect. I'm perfectly fine with downtube shifters and all my bikes have them, but I thought it might be fun to try out bar-end shifters. If I stick with the downtube shifters, I think I'd like to try swapping out the metal bushings for plastic ones. They don't exactly slip, but they don't have as much resistance as the Victory shifters on my Rossin. Has anyone tried this and will it work?

If I do nothing else to the bike, I'd at least like to get a bag big enough to fit more than just a patch kit and a clif bar. I'd like to get a bag that could fit a small tool roll, a jacket, some food, and maybe a bottle of gatorade. I'm not opposed to a saddle bag instead of a front bag, but I don't really like the look of the really big ones that Carradice and Rivendell offer. I have heard that front bags can affect steering depending on the bike's geometry. Is this a problem even with small loads?

jimmuller 

Most questions and answers to issues like this revolve around component selection. But I'd like to hear it from a different direction.

First, your title says rando-ize my Raleigh and you mention long-distance rides in the countryside. What exactly are do you mean by that? To some people a long distance is 50 miles, to others it's 100, and to others it's 500. All in a day or in one sitting? Supported or not? Over what kind of terrain? Before you (the generic "you") can answer the next questions you need to define what you are hoping for.

Second, what features of the bike would make you goals easier? Less weight, more weight? Lower gearing, wider gearing? Carrying capacity? Comfort? Reliability? Speed and efficiency?

For me long distance means a century or more in a day, possibly several days in a row, not carrying much weight. I would prefer to do that on a comfortable and efficient road bike with gearing to accommodate whatever hills I'd encounter. But I'd just as soon set up any road bike like that for shorter rides too.

So what exactly do you mean, what are you looking to do? I'm sure you know but I'd still like to hear it.

Prowler 

Just one bit-o-experience here. I have a 76 Raleigh Professional Mk IV and use an early '80s Cannondale Trestle handlebar bag. I only carry light loads for all day rides: second water bottle, lunch, phone, keys, fleece layer, Frog Togs top, maps. The tools and tube are in a roll lashed to the seat. Not much weight up front and I've felt NO affect on the bike's handling. It handles the same with or without. However I only average 16mph or so for an all day peregrination, no high speed downhill left handers or such. FYI, that bag has a bungie cord on each side to secure the bag to the front axle, just tight enough to keep it stable. I think those really help. The bag does not move about.

Otherwise, I'm running 700 x 28 Paselas at 80psi and they work for all sorts of road, trail and off road conditions. Donno if that's Rando enough but it works for me.

Velognome 

I would like to just add: Keep all the original parts and be gentle with the removal.

Regarding setting up for long rides, my ride of choice for long days out has skinny 700x 25 tires with fenders. In my area all the roads are paved so anything wider is unnecessary, fenders are great, and for gearing, unless I'm headed for the mountian-ets, just a few gears are needed, sometimes only a single. What I'm saying is unless you need all this "rando" stuff" or your just following a trend, why bother, your bike is pretty cool as it sits.

JohnDThompson 

The Rally derailleur came in several versions. The first version, with a sprung upper pivot shifts well, much like a long-cage Shimano derailleur of the same vintage. The later version was essentially the same as a Nuovo Record with a long cage -- pretty much the same thing as the Soma conversion discussed above. They shift adequately, but not quite as nicely as the original. The final version came out after SunTour's patent on the slant pantograph expired, and features both a sprung upper pivot like the original Rally, and a slant pantograph. These shift the best of all the Rally versions. The long-cage Campagnolo derailleur with the bad reputation was the "Gran Turisimo."

Agreed. A long-cage SunTour, Cyclone or otherwise would also work well. No need to replace the front derailleur; I've never had problems using a Record front derailleur with a triple crank, and if it's a pre-CSPC version, it will work much better than a modern front derailleur if the OP keeps his current crank or goes for a narrow Q-factor crank like the TA Cyclotouriste.

rhm

The longer cage --whether on your existing derailleur, or just get a whole 'nother derailleur, such as a Suntour VX GT-- would let you run a bigger freewheel. Assuming your slowest gear now is a 28-42, you will lower it more by changing the freewheel to a 32t than by changing the chain ring to a 38t.

Some fenders are easier than others. Internationals are common enough that the forum probably has a good base of experience; someone can tell you what works best, and probably even show photos.

I think the plastic washers will work. Grease always helps, too.

Sometimes a load on the front actually improves handling. One way or another, it's good to have a big bag attached to the bike somewhere. Always proves useful. The only down side is that you tend to forget what's in it... and after a while it can be hard to identify what it was, that you left in it.

Bandera

Versatile bikes like the Internat'l have been modified to suit the owner's needs from Day 1, a stock looking bike in the OP's condition is s sign of a lack of use not Period Correct passion.
"Back when" it was mostly experienced club riders who bought Internat'l from us, almost none left the shop w/ full OEM spec since tubulars and road race gearing made no sense for century riders in our hilly terrain.

Clincher wheels were built to spec w/ wide range FWs, cranksets were replaced w/ the customer's preference in double or triple and rear derail to handle the wrap as a matter of course.
Mudguards, HB/seatbags and an extra bottle cage were fitted and off they went for a few decades of service modified for each rider's preference.

The few OEM spec that left the shop were ridden a few times and disappeared into storage w/ the Ping clubs and emerge as the OP's has.

-OP

Relax, no power tools are being considered, just the same modification process as in '71 w/ the owner keeping the OEM parts and actually riding the bike.

Here's a pic of an Internat'l that has been road and 'cross raced, used for touring and LD riding and now is a town bike w/ '50's AW/Cyclo drivetrain.
41 years of continuous service as required and not 1 full OEM mile.



-Bandera

jeirvine 

If you're not doing loaded touring, and aren't aiming to conquer mountain passes, then I'd go with a French double - 52/38, and something like a 14-26 freewheel. You can still run the existing derailleur, and that should give you plenty of gearing for most long rides in the countryside with a seat or handlebar bag worth of stuff.

justin10054

Don't worry, I'll be very gentle with my blow torch and slide hammer. I can't find my crank puller, so I'll have to work with what I've got.