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Accident on my Miyata - Need some advice

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Accident on my Miyata - Need some advice

Old 07-14-15, 05:36 AM
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Accident on my Miyata - Need some advice

Greetings all. I am a long time lurker here while I was researching, buying, and building my Miyata 1000. Unfortunately I didn't get to ride it that long before having an accident.

Details....I was riding to work on a road I have ridden almost every day for the past couple years. I made a right turn onto the road and saw a truck about 100 yards ahead of me. I down shifted due to the change in relative wind being a stiff headwind. I am new to the downtube shifter on the Miyata so I looked down to admire their beauty and trim for some chain rub. As I look up the truck that was ahead of me has stopped in the middle of the road (no bike lane on this road - gotta love south Texas) and I run into the back of the truck; barely any time to brake and no time to maneuver. Half of my body ends up hanging over the tailgate into the bed, but I am pretty much unscathed, and I remain rubber side down throughout. A city worker comes around from the front of the truck and asks if I'm ok. I am. (They were repairing pot holes). I am. I quickly inspect my bike...the wheels spins fine but the handle bar/fork have a lot of resistance when I turn them.

Being only a couple miles from home I quickly pick up my bruised ego and ride home to swap transportation modes to my car and drive to work.

Damage assessment: Wheel is slightly out of true, just slightly. Not a big deal since I have a SON Dynamo hub I am going to have installed in it. Fork is definitely bent back at the legs, and crown, and the steerer tube is probably bent as well. Picture below.

My questions for the community: should I attempt to have the fork repaired? How much does something like this roughly cost? Should I attempt to find a new fork from Surley, Soma, etc. Should I have a new fork built?

Thanks for the input.
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Old 07-14-15, 05:43 AM
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Top tube looks bent but you'd more pictures against a better background....something without all the vertical and horizontal elements. The fork is bent but it's hard to say exactly where its bent....legs, crown, steerer, hard to say.

The right person with the right tools can fix the frame, the fork is salvageable as long as its not the steerer/crown.

I have the tools to fix fork, but not the frame.
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Old 07-14-15, 05:43 AM
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I'd get it straightened. A competent shop can straighten that for less than $50. A replacement fork (Soma, Surly, etc) that will have the wrong trail and axle-to-crown will be $75 to $150. Getting a new fork built is going to run $250.

Always keep your head up.

Edit: +1 on Jim's comment. The frame looks bent, too. Put a straight edge against it to check.
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Old 07-14-15, 05:50 AM
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My condolences! I'm glad the damage was confined to the bike.

Repairing the fork is a somewhat iffy proposition. I can't tell whether it's bent at the bottom of the steerer or at the top of the legs or both. If someone can bend it straight, he shouldn't charge much; but it depends on what he has to do. Regardless, he probably can't give any kind of guarantee on the work. That done, the real test is whether it rides well or not. Very likely you won't be able to tell whether it's as good as before, but if your confidence in the fork is shaken, you will never enjoy riding it as much as you did before the accident.

I would look at the replacement fork options and the replacement frame options. Even if there is nothing wrong with your frame, you may find a suitable replacement frame, including fork, for about the same price as a new fork.

Having a new fork built, that would be very expensive. Spectrum, for example, charges $450, and it's not clear whether the brake bosses are included or an additional $125.
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Old 07-14-15, 08:47 AM
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That's a crying shame! I'm sure you know what a rare and well thought of bike you have. If it were a lesser make and model, I'd say scrap it. This one is worth saving.
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Old 07-14-15, 09:06 AM
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I question the TT as well. It is hard to believe that the TT is bent without the DT being affected. Check that first.
If you can find the specs for the fork, you may be able to find a replacement (aftermarket) as mentioned.

My perception is that the fork could be straightened. The key is the steerer tube. Disassemble the front end and place a straight edge on the steerer tube to determine if it is bent. If it isn't, there is hope.

The hope can be found here post #109 . Some will argue that this approach is too risky. Your call.

Links didn't provide what I thought they would so here is the story in pics:
[IMG]WP_20150430_008, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]P1020996, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]P1030002, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]P1030005, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]P1030006, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]P1030007, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]P1020998, on Flickr[/IMG]

Not done yet as some minor adjustment need to be made. Both legs are not in the same plane as they should be and I need to figure out how to measure the offset.
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Old 07-14-15, 05:22 PM
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Thanks to all for the advice. I removed the fork this afternoon to take a closer look at it. I took some pictures against a grid pattern to better illustrate where the fork is bent.

To me it appears it may be slightly bent at the fork crown, but the majority of the bend is in the steerer tube.

Looks good from straight on.


Side view shows the detail of where it is bent.


Close up


Dimples in the crown race from the bearings in the headset.


Head tube angles look ok.


Frame looks straight
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Old 07-14-15, 06:04 PM
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I would suggest that you seek out a local framemaker to see if that steerer can be replaced. If there are none, you could look for more distant framemakers that you could mail the fork to. I'd at least send the photos to Spectrum Spectrum Cycles | Frame Repair and Refinishing and see what they think. They charge $125 to $150 for major tube replacements so this seems like it'd be less than that.
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Old 07-14-15, 06:17 PM
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OK- here's the down and dirty secret to the shortcut method of straightening forks, which works much better than folks might guess.

Leave the fork in the frame, have someone hold up the bike while you sit on the floor forward of it. Grab the front wheel by the nearest (forward) part of the wheel, brace your foot against a pedal and PULL. It takes some touch, and you need not to get carried away, but a decent portion of the time the fork will bend in the same places as before, and come back reasonably straight. No guaranties it'll be prefect, but I've field repaired bikes that came out pretty damm close. Anyway once the brute work is done, you can remove and strive for precision later.

Your fork appears to have bent at the top of the steerer bulge, which acts as a secondary fulcrum (it's designed that way), so if you buttress it properly you should be able to pull it back home, and it'll bend in the same place.

Of course, a builder with proper tools can get you more precision, but that's going to cost, and a serious repair with a retubed steerer is going to be more than the fork is worth. Before going that route, I'd shop a nice steel fork and have it painted to match.
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Old 07-14-15, 07:10 PM
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I work in a welding/fabrication shop where we get a lot of bike repairs (owner is an old bike factory guy). The tricky thing about cold-setting everything back by simply trying to reverse the force that bent it in the first place is, that when chromoly steel is bent, it can work harden just a little bit. This means that when an equal and opposite force is acted against it, it may bend back in a different spot.

My .02:
I'll bet you can cold set that fork back to being pretty close with a straight edge (for the steerer tube) some patience, and probably some variation on the technique SJX426 posted. Although I would highly suggest tube clamping blocks instead of just sticking it in the vice. You can make some pretty easily with a 1" hole saw and a 2x4. Since it's a touring fork, I wouldn't worry so much about the safety of it once straightened, rather your ability to be able to fine tune it since it's going to fight back so much. There's always the Surly Cross check fork in 1" threadless.

As for the frame, put a straight edge on it to see if the top or down tube are bent right near the lug joint. It's pretty hard to tell from the pictures. The repair is probably best left to a professional framebuilder who's done that kind of thing before.
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Old 07-14-15, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Weasel9
I work in a welding/fabrication shop where we get a lot of bike repairs (owner is an old bike factory guy). The tricky thing about cold-setting everything back by simply trying to reverse the force that bent it in the first place is, that when chromoly steel is bent, it can work harden just a little bit. This means that when an equal and opposite force is acted against it, it may bend back in a different spot.
This fork isn't bent anywhere close to where work hardening would begin. I spent years working in and with bike shops, and like what's in sausage you don't want to know how many brand new bikes arrive t the shop with bent forks from being dropped on the end (less common these days because of the different packing), and are straightened just this way, or some variant.

Of course, I'm not talking on high end bikes where the demands are greater, but the method works, and I've used in in the field a number of times with better than expected results.

However since the OP has the fork out, he can fixture the crown securely and work the blades and steerer independently with more precision. I suggest scrounging a 7/8" steel shaft to use as a mandrel to support the steerer from the inside for a controlled bend. A stem might do the same job, but the steerer may be too resistant, and anyway the stem won't offer the leverage needed.

Do the steerer first checking with a straightedge as suggested, so it with the crown can work as the references for doing the blades.
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Old 07-14-15, 07:32 PM
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Earlier thread on straightening fork.

https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-me...bent-fork.html
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Old 07-14-15, 07:42 PM
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AFAIC, that fork is a goner. Bring it to a competent shop, but I don't see that steerer being reset.

Also, it's impossible to tell whether the top tube is bent or not from the photos. While it could be true that it is straight, only the straightedge test is the conclusive one.
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Old 07-14-15, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by TimmyT
AFAIC, that fork is a goner. Bring it to a competent shop, but I don't see that steerer being reset.

Also, it's impossible to tell whether the top tube is bent or not from the photos. While it could be true that it is straight, only the straightedge test is the conclusive one.
So negative. I've seen far worse brought back from the nearly dead.

As for the frame, my favorite method for checking marginal head tube pushback when no buckles are felt under the downtube is to use a bubble level. Place bike in a stand and rotate until the seat tube is level. Lock in place and recheck, then transfer level to the head tube (or a straight bridging the lugs, with a cutout for the badge and check. Of course this only works for bikes with parallel geometry, but that was SOP for years. If the bike is known not to have had parallel geometry, you can still use the same method, but need to correct with shims and a sine chart. (not difficult).

In any case steerers which bend at the upper fulcrum (away from the crown) are not likely to fail when straightened, and aren't to be compared to low end forks with non butted steerers.

I think that with decent care, skill and measurements the OP has an excellent chance to have this bike as good as new, or so close that only his hairdresser knows for sure.
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Old 07-14-15, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
This fork isn't bent anywhere close to where work hardening would begin...
Work hardening begins when the metal is deformed (bent).

I think FBinNY's method is actually a pretty good one. In many cases it can make a bike rideable within a couple minutes of tweaking. I suppose I tend to be sort of picky about this stuff, and can't sleep unless I know for sure that something is fixed in every respect. I would just use whichever method sounds the best to you, that's the one that will probably work out.
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Old 07-14-15, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by WhereIsWaldo
Thanks to all for the advice. I removed the fork this afternoon to take a closer look at it. I took some pictures against a grid pattern to better illustrate where the fork is bent.

To me it appears it may be slightly bent at the fork crown, but the majority of the bend is in the steerer tube.
Side view shows the detail of where it is bent.

]


Can I get a pic of the steerer aligned with the grid instead of the legs?
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Old 07-14-15, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by miamijim
Can I get a pic of the steerer aligned with the grid instead of the legs?
Is this what you are looking for?

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Old 07-14-15, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
As for the frame, my favorite method for checking marginal head tube pushback when no buckles are felt under the downtube is to use a bubble level. Place bike in a stand and rotate until the seat tube is level. Lock in place and recheck, then transfer level to the head tube (or a straight bridging the lugs, with a cutout for the badge and check. Of course this only works for bikes with parallel geometry, but that was SOP for years. If the bike is known not to have had parallel geometry, you can still use the same method, but need to correct with shims and a sine chart. (not difficult).
The Miyata 1000 does have parallel geometry. I will try this tomorrow. Thanks.
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Old 07-14-15, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by TimmyT
Also, it's impossible to tell whether the top tube is bent or not from the photos. While it could be true that it is straight, only the straightedge test is the conclusive one.
I am unfamiliar with the straightedge test. Can you elaborate?
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Old 07-14-15, 10:11 PM
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Just put a straightedge flat against the frame. If it's right on top or right underneath, there should be no gaps. It's pretty straightforward.

Here is are two pictures from a frame that failed the straightedge test both on the top tube and on the down tube.



Here is another view of the ripple in the downtube:
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Old 07-14-15, 10:14 PM
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difficult to tell what's going on without a ruler or level. looks like the steerer might be ever so slightly bent, with the legs heavily deflected backwards.

i think you'll find pretty much every framebuilder tell you, once the steerer is bent, the fork is a gonner.

Originally Posted by Weasel9
Work hardening begins when the metal is deformed (bent).
Exactly. even if the steerer is fine, with that much damage, it might take an experienced professional with tools to figure things out. honestly, id just be looking at a new soma fork instead.

Originally Posted by FBinNY
Leave the fork in the frame, have someone hold up the bike while you sit on the floor forward of it. Grab the front wheel by the nearest (forward) part of the wheel, brace your foot against a pedal and PULL.
really bad advice. thats a very easy way to get your frame damaged too.

do you have any frame building experience, or are you just some guy who bent stuff while at a bike shop?
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Old 07-14-15, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by zazenzach
....

do you have any frame building experience, or are you just some guy who worked at a bike shop?
Actually, I trained a decent number of frambuilders in basic metal working (not brazing or welding) practices, over a span of some 30 years. I use my initials here, but I'm well known in the community and, when active, was routinely consulted when builders ran into issues beyond their experience or skill set.

As far as builders saying "once the steerer is bent...." goes, it's a fairly recent attitude based on concern over possible liability rather than practical experience. Many would bend or "cold set" stuff on their own bikes, but not commercially. It's similar to when pregnant women ask the Ob/Gyn about food restrictions. They'll say no to foods that they tell their own daughters is OK within prudent limits. We live in a CYA world these days.
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Old 07-14-15, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Actually, I trained a decent number of frambuilders in basic metal working (not brazing or welding) practices, over a span of some 30 years. I use my initials here, but I'm well known in the community and, when active, was routinely consulted when builders ran into issues beyond their experience or skill set.

As far as builders saying "once the steerer is bent...." goes, it's a fairly recent attitude based on concern over possible liability rather than practical experience. Many would bend or "cold set" stuff on their own bikes, but not commercially. It's similar to when pregnant women ask the Ob/Gyn about food restrictions. They'll say no to foods that they tell their own daughters is OK within prudent limits. We live in a CYA world these days.
fair enough. i still think if you're going to do any cold setting like that, the fork should be removed from the frame and put into some sort of make shift jig etc.

ive had to cold set two forks now and respace several frames. i put a dent into one by applying too much pressure in a small area at one time. i can vary easily see a nonprofessional doing the same and destroying a top/down tube while trying to fix a fork in the frame.
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Old 07-14-15, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by zazenzach
fair enough. i still think if you're going to do any cold setting like that, the fork should be removed from the frame and put into some sort of make shift jig etc.

ive had to cold set two forks now and respace several frames. i put a dent into one by applying too much pressure in a small area at one time. i can vary easily see a nonprofessional doing the same and destroying a top/down tube while trying to fix a fork in the frame.
I actually don't disagree, and even suggested specific methods to do that earlier. But that's a far cry from spouting some second hand "knowledge" about the fork being toast.

There's plenty of expertise on this forum, reflecting decades (cumulative centuries) of experience, which is far beyond what you might have mastered over your two fork and several frames career.

While experienced and knowledgeable people don't always agree (we have some serious and esoteric knockdown and drag outs from time to time) we share mutual understanding and respect, and there's a general consensus with the disagreements more about details than the big picture stuff.

This is a forum and you should feel free to post your opinions at any time, but should read carefully and understand what's being said before venturing onto the thin ice of "correcting" others, unless you're sure of your facts.
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Old 07-14-15, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
I actually don't disagree, and even suggested specific methods to do that earlier. But that's a far cry from spouting some second hand "knowledge" about the fork being toast.

There's plenty of expertise on this forum, reflecting decades (cumulative centuries) of experience, which is far beyond what you might have mastered over your two fork and several frames career.

While experienced and knowledgeable people don't always agree (we have some serious and esoteric knockdown and drag outs from time to time) we share mutual understanding and respect, and there's a general consensus with the disagreements more about details than the big picture stuff.

This is a forum and you should feel free to post your opinions at any time, but should read carefully and understand what's being said before venturing onto the thin ice of "correcting" others, unless you're sure of your facts.
i recognize everything ive said is subjective opinion.

however, saying a fork with a bent steerer is toast, is not a controversial opinion. it also isnt solely the musings of some crackpot amateur. its a ubiquitous attitude held amongst framebuilders (due to liability concerns or not, i do not know).

im not saying im an expert. but the "second hand knowledge" im spouting coorelated with the attitudes of many authorities and my rather limited experience in a week long framebuilding course, and years of reading people's opinions here.
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