Classtime 

This could be titled, "Truing Wheels", but vintage wheels (old) have likely been messed with repeatedly by well-meaning people with a spoke wrench. The inspiration for this thread is a wheel set that came on an '85 Trek 560: 32 hole Shimano 600 hubs laced to Ambrosia 19 Aerodynamics with Bladed DT spokes, brass nipples, 2X in the front and 3x in the rear. There is virtually no corrosion and all of the nipples will turn. A few nipples are a little sticky but will pop after 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn. The dish on the rear was off by more than 10 mm--the rim pulled to the drive side, and there are the usual blips and hops. I took care of the dish and the worst hops and blips. Now I am working on the spoke tension and of course it is taking forever and I am frustrated. I have built 6 wheel sets using Roger Musson's e-book and can build nice wheels from scratch with 1mm+/- all around. I hope some of you can share what has worked for you in your attempts to use vintage wheels (these are pretty cool) in your vintage bikes for daily riding.
Thanks,
Jeff

Sir_Name 

Start with a straight rim, if hubs have been laced/built in the past I would stick with the same lacing pattern (not sure how important that really is).

jeirvine 

The way I would approach it would be to loosen all the spokes back to just the edge of the threaded portion. Then tighten them all evenly. If the rim is not too bent, this will eventually get you to nice even tension. This assumes all the spokes match, and none have been replaced.

seedsbelize 

I personally don't make any attempt at getting the old wheels to the close tolerances I can get with new ones. Of course you're frustrated. True them to the point that they fit between the brake pads without rubbing. A little further down the road, re-true them to the brake pads and carry on.

ramzilla

Most people don't realize you have to loosen spokes opposite the ones you tighten. The first thing I do when I true a wheel is grab the spoke pairs by hand and squeeze. If they're too tight I loosen them. After that, I begin truing wheel one spoke at a time. I've had wheels that were so out of whack they look like tacos.

SJX426 

I follow jeirvine approach. Still having challenges with my Rigida 1320's, even with a tension gauge. Small steps make a huge difference with these old wheels. Radial alignment first then axial, then tension, then radial, then axial, then tension, etc. I creep up the tension by 3 units on the tension gauge each time. I figure that if the tension is within 20% and it fits with reasonable brake pad clearance, good enough. At times I can't tell if the rim is wacked or it is that flexible (think cooked pasta)!

I popped a spoke on rear of my Colnago a few years ago with 32 spoke GL330. So out of true I had to release the brake caliper to even be able to get the wheel to rotate. then I discovered it was rubbing on the chain stay! Upon investigation, there were both straight gauge spokes and DB spokes on the drive side. Replaced the straight gauge spokes (~2) and tensioned evenly (focus on drive side), no problems.

lasauge 

Seedsbelize has it right: with used rims, and cheap new rims, imperfections in the rim itself will limit just how perfectly true and tensioned you can make a wheel. If after repeated truing attempts you find yourself with a rim that has a permanent bend that can't be made rideable with reasonable spoke tension anymore, sometimes the only technique that works is to find yourself a solid surface and quite literally bash the rim to see if you can knock it back into shape.

Classtime 

I am considering this. Maybe loosening further so I can oil the threads. Do you think the wheel builder for Anaheim Schwinn would have used unmatched spokes? This seems like a quality wheel of quality parts but a peek under the rim strip suggests that the spokes don't match (other than DS vs. NDS).

rhm

Yes, but "bash" and "knock" imply violence and will not work. Push on the rim with your knee while pulling on both sides of the bent spot with your hands. Make stacks lumber or to hold the rim while you stand on it and pull on another part of it. Shape a block of wood that fits tightly between the hub barrel and the rim everywhere but where there's a flat spot in the rim; loosen the spokes at the flat spot and jam that block of wood in there while you true the area around it. And so on. In extreme cases you may wish to completely unbuild the wheel and manipulate it until it will lie down on a flat surface without rocking around. Cut a piece of wood that fits snugly from one side to the other, right across the diameter, and find the spots where it doesn't fit so well, then try to make it fit. Apply gentle persuasion, not violence.

It is usually possible to get an old rim straight, true, round, and properly dished. Even spoke tension may remain elusive.

lord_athlon

On older rims, I can either get even spoke tension, or I can get it true. Rarely can I get both.

SJX426 

I just don't want to acknowledge that statement!

Last ride 76 

As far as riding goes, I agree.

I have to add "approximately" in my case. Sufficiently true to the condition of the wheel is what I aim for. I have some wheels that are much more true than others, depending on their original quality, and current condition and usage.

If you're really going to loosen all the spokes completely, don't do one all the way and then move on to the next... gradually reduce the tension all the way around, the reverse of how you would build it.


I'm content to have my daily riders clear the brake pads.

carbomb

I find getting even spoke tension to be a frustrating, and often impossible battle that nearly never results in a true wheel when I'm dealing with an old wheelset. The fact is that I'm not the original owner and I have no clue what these wheels have been through, if a spoke was replaced, etc. I just focus on getting it true while making sure no spoke is too loose or too tight, but certainly not even all around. I then ride the snot out of it as much as I can, put it back on the stand and maybe do 1 more touch up and call it done. They've all stayed within 1mm or so of true and none have failed or anything. Chasing values on a tension gauge has created more messes than it's ever solved for me.

Desertdweller

Yes

SJX426 

It is very frustrating unless you use the Excel spread sheet available through Park to record the readings and then you get a really good idea of the tension distribution. Huge help as it will graphically tell you what is high and low relative to the other spokes. It also help you to understand why the rim is behaving as it does as a result of the tension distribution. The other nice think is know when your tension is within the 20% acceptable quality variation. Having said that, it is still a challenge.

CliffordK

I usually just true wheels up the best I can. After a few bumps and bends... sometimes all I can hope for is to get it close.

One wheel I got recently literally had about a 5mm hop, all on one side. Literally half the spokes were cranked in a few extra mm. That was one of the few wheels that I actually de-tensioned to true.

ldmataya 

I typically re-string a wheel like yours with new spokes. Unless I'm going for historical accuracy, or it isn't going to get ridden too much, nobody cares that the vintage wheel has DT competition spokes, and they especially like how much more reliable it is. I can just replace one spoke at a time watching TV since I don't have to focus on a lacing pattern. It clearly adds cost, but I think modern spokes have much better quality control and it sure makes truing go faster. If you can't get a wheel trued after spoke replacement, then you have a particularly bad rim.

When truing, I've learned the hard way to not even think about lateral truing until I get radial perfect. This is where too much focus on even tension can really slow you down. Once you get sufficient tension on spokes and are perfectly radially true, then lateral is quite simple. But I usually won't have even tension when dealing with a vintage rim.

crank_addict

^ regarding spokes. Sure makes it easy going with new, and for the most part is practical thinking. Though I tend to do things the hard way, such as preserving old spokes and reuse. I like the looks of them including galvanized.

Just a novice here and have much respect to the wheel pro's. As of late, I have one that I built but the rim (vintage - NOS) has a slight egg shape to it. Quite the challenge for me. Its close but I'm not fully satisfied. I may take that one to an expert, hoping they can correct it plus use my vintage spokes.

jeirvine 

Since we're talking spokes, I'll offer this as a great source. Nipples included: $0.40@Butted. $0.25@Plain.

Classtime 

I highly recommend Roger Musson's e-book. He wipes all the mystery away from wheel building. The shiny bladed spokes were worth saving in this case, but I did have to replace two nipples that had been crushed and didn't spin on easily. I loosened all the spokes to expose most of the thread and put a drop of triflow on the threads. Then I went at it in normal fashion. All is acceptable--But for two NDS spokes have too little tension and they are opposite DS spokes that are higher than all others. We'll see how it goes. May have to loctite the NDS spokes if they don't stay put.


WOW. That is a deal for spokes and nipples.

seedsbelize 

I failed to mention that I have never used a tensiometer, and likely never will. I listen to the tone and adjust accordingly. Or not. If it runs true, I don't mess with it. I also almost always use new spokes. I don't use a proper truing stand either.

jimmuller 

I'm not so sure I'd put tri-flow on the spoke threads. I have in fact put a bit of grease on the threads but there is always the possibility of them loosening. You should probably check them more than once as you add up miles. I've read of people lubing them with linseed oil because it thickens to make the nipple turn less easily.

I have re-used spokes that I took off my own wheels so I knew their history. Have not had a problem yet.

Desertdweller

Thank you.

repechage

I never liked to build Rigida rims. Period. Many have little or no stagger of the spoke holes and I find the alloy soft.

Backing off a used wheel completely is not a bad idea, but I would lubricate the threading before attempting a rethreading. I would also on a rear wheel before I started would be to visually check the threading of the drive side spokes in particular. having a spoke replaced before you received the wheel, working but not the same length could be a real time and energy waste. I then would begin by bringing up the nipples to a common station, say to the end of the visible threading or depending on how things appeaed while removing the tension with 2-3 threads showing. In short, I really prefer new spokes or take it all apart and verify the spoke length and see how it compares to a spoke length calculation.

SJX426 

@repechage - Thanks! Did all that! Replacement spokes were based on existing ones and made at a LBS that had a spoke cutter, thread rolling die.

I just can't let go of the challenge of building the Rigida's. I am going to give it one more try before moving on.