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When did steel bikes peak?

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When did steel bikes peak?

Old 08-06-15, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by SJX426
Ahhh. When did he pick them?
I don't think Chuck picked "the five masters". But that is a good question. Who did and why those five? Also, why five for that matter?
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Old 08-06-15, 01:57 PM
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All I know is steel is real
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Old 08-06-15, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by FlatSix911
1988 is the correct answer.
That is around the time when the esteem of steel-framed bikes peaked. Thereafter, there were compelling reasons to choose aluminum and carbon fiber.

As for quality, I agree with those who say it they haven't peaked yet. They just keep getting better.

But as some noted, the market has shrunken.

It's hard to tell, but the market for steel bikes seems to be increasing a bit, and not just at the high end. Even bikesdirect and nashbar have some steel models. I believe all Linus and Biria bikes are steel. Linus is a solid value in midrange. Biria is slightly higher-priced with a similar value.

Joe Average who is not a bike nut may not care about the æsthetics or history of steel bikes. Aluminum costs less and is lighter. Lots of aluminum bikes ride well. They generally hold up well, too. They are not worth repairing when damaged, but that's really not a big concern for many people anyway. Modifications are also harder, and that is also a very narrow concern among cyclists.
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Old 08-06-15, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
That is around the time when the esteem of steel-framed bikes peaked. Thereafter, there were compelling reasons to choose aluminum and carbon fiber.

As for quality, I agree with those who say it they haven't peaked yet. They just keep getting better.

But as some noted, the market has shrunken.

It's hard to tell, but the market for steel bikes seems to be increasing a bit, and not just at the high end. Even bikesdirect and nashbar have some steel models. I believe all Linus and Biria bikes are steel. Linus is a solid value in midrange. Biria is slightly higher-priced with a similar value.

Joe Average who is not a bike nut may not care about the æsthetics or history of steel bikes. Aluminum costs less and is lighter. Lots of aluminum bikes ride well. They generally hold up well, too. They are not worth repairing when damaged, but that's really not a big concern for many people anyway. Modifications are also harder, and that is also a very narrow concern among cyclists.
"Middle" market has experienced a lot of growth, too. The Somas, Surleys, All-Citys of the world have really grown, it seems.
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Old 08-06-15, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by icepick_trotsky
"Middle" market has experienced a lot of growth, too. The Somas, Surleys, All-Citys of the world have really grown, it seems.
Yes! Surlys designs are very smart. Their frames are too heavy for my taste, but then again, they are as light as they can be at their prices. Somas look great. My wife has an All-City Macho Man (cyclocross), and I am super impressed, even envious. I suspect she will keep it for life.

But really, they are in a niche market.
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Old 08-06-15, 03:13 PM
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I think the great steel frames got started in Italy 1960's through 70's and ended in Japan around 1988. After that, it was off to Taiwan & robots.
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Old 08-06-15, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ramzilla
I think the great steel frames got started in Italy 1960's through 70's
I'm going to have to disagree. The workmanship on my frames from the 30s and 40s are far superior to frames from the 60s and 70s. Most every frame I have seen at shows confirms this.

So I'd just push back your timeline a bit.
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Old 08-06-15, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Cougrrcj
If you want to quibble about ounces, let's just say that I'M carrying more extra ounces than the gains(?) of either of the hypothetical builds would shave,...
Aren't we all!

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Old 08-06-15, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by FlatSix911
1988 is the correct answer.
Actually I disagree with 1988, why you scream? Because sales was close to an all time low in cycles in general, lugged steel frames were being made by machines instead of handmade, silver brazing gave way to brass brazing, steel frames was slowly taking a back seat to aluminium frames. So no, 1988 was on the downward slope not the peak, there is no one year that was pinnacle in steel bikes, there was a period between 1978 and 1985 that was however.

I still say the current generation of custom steel lugged bikes are superior to the days of old, and that was the discussion, steel frames. However if you bring into the discussion the component world then the most reliable time for components was between 78 and 85 (especially Suntour), combine that with very well built steel frames and low cost and you have the best of both worlds except lacking in artistry that was supreme back in the 70's with chrome frame stuff; today you get the best of what modern steel can offer over the older steel while going back to the days of artistry, but you get less reliable components and pay a lot more for both the frame and components. There was never a perfect time when all 4...artistry, high end steel, reliable components, and cost...all peaked together.

Heck in 1989 a lot of steel tubing manufactures gave up on their high end tubesets and bicycle manufactures reduced their line of bikes that offered high end steel frames to just one model instead of several if they offered it all because sales were so dismal in 88.
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Old 08-06-15, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by iab
Cino Cinelli never lifted a torch in his life.

But if you mention those three, you really shouldn't leave out Ernesto Colnago and Ugo De Rosa.
I've heard skepticism over whether Ernesto ever used a torch as well
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Old 08-06-15, 08:33 PM
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Steel bikes have just been getting better and better for decades. Steel is the material that's been used the longest, has enjoyed the most r&d behind the various versions and has been explored the most by builders. In my humble and correct opinion, steel has been peaking and will continue to do so.
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Old 08-06-15, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
That is around the time when the esteem of steel-framed bikes peaked. Thereafter, there were compelling reasons to choose aluminum and carbon fiber. As for quality, I agree with those who say it they haven't peaked yet. They just keep getting better. But as some noted, the market has shrunken. It's hard to tell, but the market for steel bikes seems to be increasing a bit, and not just at the high end. Even bikesdirect and nashbar have some steel models.
The steel bike market has never been better ... $399 SingleSpeed Fixed Gear Track Bikes








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Old 08-06-15, 11:51 PM
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I don't think it can really be pinned down since different makes were peaking at different times.
ball park figure....eh sumware twixt '83 & 89. For my bikes, sumware between my $60 'Vega
& the discarded Centurion frame I just rebuilt.

P.S. FlatSix This is a 'bike' forum, save your politics for twitter.

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Old 08-07-15, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by bigwoo
There were some peaks and valleys- You had great Reynolds 531 machines in 1970 but you also had evolution and supreme quality Columbus TSX in the late 80's and Reynolds 853 TIG's were extremely smooth and responsive rides in the early 2000/s.
No, very few keepers of the torch today can match the craftsmen/women of the past. $3,500.00 "Custom" builders today pale in comparison considering they have more technology at their disposal. We have lost artisans in this world of electronic gadgetry and CNC programming. They are still out there, but have to charge a lot for their skill set and are few.
I'd be interested to hear from TMar on how alloy contents changed over the years too.... I don't think the available materials are as good today (IMHO)
Many of todays custom steel builders build completely by hand. A hacksaw and a couple of files to cut the miters and a handheld torch to stick everything together. I don't see any use of CNC machining except that some may use a CNC to make their own dropouts or headbadges. Some, mostly TIG builders, will use holesaws mounted in a mill to do their miters.
I think you are wrong to suggest that todays handbuilders are inferior to yesterdays because of reliance on technology. There simply isn't any evidence to support this.
Now, to answer the OP's question. Steel bikes have yet to peak. Today there are many artisans building beautiful handbuilts with tubesets that continually improve. Reynolds has brought a new lower cost stainless tubeset to the market, KVA has a fantastic stainless offering, the people at Cycle Design Group may eventually bring a steel tubeset to market, True Temper is still producing wonderful tubes. In addition, all of the old standards, Reynolds, Columbus, Tange, etc. are still doing their thing. All of these companies are offering a wide varieties of diameters and wall thicknesses.
It just keeps getting better and better.
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Old 08-07-15, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake
I've heard skepticism over whether Ernesto ever used a torch as well
I'm sure he picked one up now and again while walking past the bench, to light his cigarette.
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Old 08-07-15, 06:47 AM
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Tomorrow.
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Old 08-07-15, 07:58 AM
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Now, hands down.
Not even close.

I still want more C&V than modern.

Originally Posted by Jarrett2
In your opinion, when do you feel that steel bikes were at their peak?

Meaning, a time where the best steel was available, the best builders were crafting them, etc.

Or is it now? Do steel builders keep getting better even today?

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Old 08-07-15, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes
Now, hands down.
Not even close.
+1,
I believe Robbie is right. For steel bikes, time has not stood still, improvements in design have occurred. Consider: I may love my Nishiki Medalist and the teal Centurion Iron Man best and my 92 Schwinn Paramount PDG may be the prettiest bike I own (including all the plastic and alloy bikes), but the 01 Bianchi Campione is the bike I'd ride if I was told I had to ride steel and keep up with a fast pace line. And that's a 14 year old, lower end steel bike, but it will out perform any of the steel bikes I have including those that I've upgraded to STI/brifter bikes. I would love to get my hands on a new steel bike that's higher end, but I can't afford it.
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Old 08-07-15, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by dailycommute
the peak is generally around 3-5 hours in, but if you are going multiple days I would say tops of hills.
If it lasts longer, seek medical attention.
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Old 08-07-15, 08:20 AM
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Wraith, and you can stop looking.
Originally Posted by Jarrett2
Interesting stuff. I've really just gotten into steel bikes lately.

I've been looking at stuff like Ritchey, Gunnar, Wraith, Seven, Honey, Rodriquez, Jamis, Kona, Salsa, All-City, Surly, etc.

I'd like to be in the know for what to look out for on CL in case something cool comes up. I'm really digging my Reynolds 853 Jamis Eclipse that I nabbed off CL a couple of months back.
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Old 08-07-15, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ppg677
Trek has not left Waterloo. All their high-end stuff is still made in Waterloo. I run into guys all the time that work at Trek. One guy was going aerospace design for Boeing and now does structural analysis at Trek.
Better beer in WI, the Packers, and the women shave.
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Old 08-07-15, 08:25 AM
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First off, I skimmed through the thread & didn't see much attention paid to current geometry.

2nd, road feel of certain tube sets

these are two huge contributors to the perfect frame. Now, there is going to be a handful of salt in there which is, "preference". This said, the two factors meeting in perfection are where I would consider the "peak" to be. Mid 80s to early 90's would be my answer. Why? Later frames have resorted to a relaxed head tube angle. Earlier frames were still in the era of refining steel alloys & lug shapes. Finally the lugged frame disappears after the point of a supple steel tube. Tubing wall thickness & diameter changed requiring an even further refinement of alloy which, in my opinion, completely ruined the feel of the steel frame. again, preference but, these tube sets just don't feel the same. Almost like a cross between aluminum & carbon. & with the oversized tube sets that had lugs made for them, much the same. The standard sized Reynolds, Columbus tubing sets of the 80's era coupled with a tight headtube angle, handled like nothing else. The softer steel, felt solid & smooth. & it could be built up quite light & responsive. The qualities carbon fiber bikes still Try to emulate.
Some modern advances, such as 15lb bikes, high grades of titanium & the ability to place materials in odd shapes & stregths are to much the benefit of carbon fiber bikes. But they still have yet to Atain the ride quality of the highest of the steel era.
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Old 08-07-15, 08:27 AM
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THIS.

Originally Posted by busdriver1959
Many of todays custom steel builders build completely by hand. A hacksaw and a couple of files to cut the miters and a handheld torch to stick everything together. I don't see any use of CNC machining except that some may use a CNC to make their own dropouts or headbadges. Some, mostly TIG builders, will use holesaws mounted in a mill to do their miters.
I think you are wrong to suggest that todays handbuilders are inferior to yesterdays because of reliance on technology. There simply isn't any evidence to support this.
Now, to answer the OP's question. Steel bikes have yet to peak. Today there are many artisans building beautiful handbuilts with tubesets that continually improve. Reynolds has brought a new lower cost stainless tubeset to the market, KVA has a fantastic stainless offering, the people at Cycle Design Group may eventually bring a steel tubeset to market, True Temper is still producing wonderful tubes. In addition, all of the old standards, Reynolds, Columbus, Tange, etc. are still doing their thing. All of these companies are offering a wide varieties of diameters and wall thicknesses.
It just keeps getting better and better.
...and THIS

Originally Posted by RobbieTunes
Now, hands down.
Not even close.
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Old 08-07-15, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ramzilla
I think the great steel frames got started in Italy 1960's through 70's
The Good Old Days really weren't from a Quality standpoint.
We added at least two hours of shop rate $ to every Italian frameset our shop sold to account for flat table/fork rig alignment, milling, facing and tapping before any assembly could proceed.
Metal prep was generally awful/absent, paint was applied casually and decals were temporary.

None of that would be acceptable today.

-Bandera
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Old 08-07-15, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by icepick_trotsky
Here here!

and here.
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