Dave Mayer

Where to start.....

• Despite over 200 rides on lightweight tubulars so far this year, I've not had a single flat. 20cc of Stan's sealant per tire has made sure of that. Can't say that for clinchers, in that I've had a rim strip fail causing a sudden front-tire deflation, and a pinch flat on the rear. You do not get pinch flats or rim strip failures on tubulars.
• Lighter rims require more spokes. So I'm mostly riding old-school tubular wheels with high spoke counts and light rims. They are overall lighter, especially at the rim where it counts. And I feel more secure on them. If you snap one spoke on a 36 spoke wheel, you'll barely notice it. Do that on a 16 spoke wheel on a warp-speed descent, they'll be nothing left of you but a 500 yard-long red streak down the road.
• Overheating: clinchers are susceptible to tubes overheating and blowing on long descents. I've done it on my mountain bikes with rim brakes. On tubulars, the tube inside the tire (yes, there is a tube) is better protected from the heat coming from the rim. On tubulars you do run the risk of melting the glue, but you have to be riding the brakes for a long time for this to happen.
• Safety: when you have a blowout on tubulars, unless you are going sideways already, the tire stays stuck to the rim. On clinchers, you have to despirately try to ride it out and shed speed on the 2 metal rails of death with a flat clincher tire squirming around randomly and threatening to jam your brake calipers.

squirtdad

Whatever you decide don't cut the spokes on the rear hub until the freewheel is off (if it is a freewheel)

Bandera

To give some historical perspective by the mid-80's no one in my club was riding training miles on tubulars anymore, although the more experienced racers had tubular wheels for Duh: Racing.
Despite the rosy line the Period Correct Police will shoot about "so comfortable & they handle so well" on the inter-web regular riding on tubulars today leaves the old guard scratching our grey heads "Huh"?

Riding tubulars "back when" was more like having expensive finicky pets than bicycle tires.
Here's why:

Buy training and racing tubulars by the bundle
Store tubs with the wine in a cool, dry dark cave' to age
In a season or two stretch tires on old rims, check air every week
Prep rim & tire overnight
Properly install tire w/ one's adhesive of choice
Flat & toss tire aside for winter's repair with needle and thread at hand

edit: Here's a great quote from the 1955 British TdF rider Tony Hoar on Tubulars:
"We hoped they (Dunlop) had matured them, because they have to be aged six to nine months, to cure the rubber."

When I retired from competition I sold my tubulars and never looked back. Now I have room for more wine storage and don't have $$$$ in tubulars hanging like inedible Country hams.

If the correct clincher tire size is selected for a rider's weight, riding style and road surfaces modern quality (not cheapo) clincher tires will be comfortable and handle well on open public roads.
An old teammate rides the modern "tubeless" wheel/tire design and is satisfied w/ them for the big miles he still puts in. Never considered them myself.

As always, suit yourself.

-Bandera

vintagerando

Yes....I have been warned before. But thanks for the heads up/

squirtdad

My 2 cents on tubular based on limited experience, I had wanted to try them for ages, tripped over a set if campy hubs with GP4 rims (36 spoke).

I went the full on Tufo route.... via ribble S33 24mm, mounting tape and sealant.

The tire mounted easily, no mess. (so I guess I don't have the full experience )

only 70 miles, but on not perfectly clean streets.

So far so good.

The ride is noticable smoother than on my clinchers.

I am also 265 lb

gaucho777 

I'm not above re-using spokes. Jobst Brandt didn't object either, fwiw. It doesn't take too long to slowly de-tension the spokes. From there you can take a drill with a screwdriver bit and back out the nipples from the end. A wheelset worth of quality spokes can easily cost as much as a dinner out for two. They'll be too long to if you plan to rebuild with 32h/36h rims and hubs in the same spoke pattern. Still, there's no sense cutting out the spokes when they can be salvaged, imho.

Wildwood 

So I have been riding a GEL280 front and GL330 rear, wearing 22mm Conti Sprinters, for about 5 years. It is the summer wheelset on my 1981 AD. I ride them mostly on a paved semi-rural trail, so the miles are gentle. I have been 205lbs (6'1") for most of those miles. The lighter you can get the better they will feel.

But I totally agree with Bandera's comment above - this wheelset was not designed for heavy weight people - not by any standard of measure. Use them at your own risk. Especially on the rear.

verktyg 

@mtnbke, a lot of good points in your post, especially about the newer wheels but... the discussion here involves low spoke count classic wheels that are 25 to 30 years old.

I come not to bury Jobst Brandt, but to praise him... Jobst was a giant in the world of American cycling: opinionated, arrogant, stubborn, knew everything and was sometimes WRONG... He forgot more than most people will ever know about cycling!

I never cycled with him but several of my friends used to go with Jobst on his annual treks through the Alps. They road tubulars even on the unpaved sections. At 60+ he could stay with and drop many younger hot shot riders!

Here's Jobst's Virtual Tour of the Alps slide show complied from many years of riding there, some spectacular photos:

Jobst Virtual Tour Of The Alps - Palo Alto Bicycles NorCal CA 650-328-7411


I locked horns with him on several occasions in the old rec.bicycles.tech newsgroup. I also met him on a few occasions when he worked as an engineer for Hewlett Packard and I was doing some manufacturing consulting work for them.

The one thing that he said that stands out about low spoke count wheels is that if and when you break a spoke or two with a 36 or even 32 spoke wheel, you can still make it home most of the time after a little adjustment. You can rarely do that with an older low spoke count wheel! (he was referring to classic C&V era spokes and rims)


Depends on where and how you ride... I started riding tubulars in New Mexico in 1973. Albuquerque was one of the goat head capitals of the world. I weighed 175 Lbs. and in very good condition back then.

Many of our customers that we sold performance bikes to, bought 2 sets of wheels - 700c clinchers and sewups (unless sewups were inappropriate for their riding needs).

We made a number of recommendations to our customers:

1. use "sticker flicker" which we installed on just about every bike we sold.

2. don't ride in the gutter, ride out where the front tires of cars sweep away debris and goat heads.

3. don't over inflate your tires. 90 to 105 psi. was, and in many cases still is more than adequate tire pressure. The reduction in rolling resistance between 90 and 105 psi is only 5% to 7% but at pressures above that the likelyhood of a puncture in a sporting tire goes up drastically. So keep drinking the Kool Aid if you think high tire pressures make you faster!




Frequently that had to do with using Clement red "Gudda Ruda" rim cement. Back in the day that was holy water among the slavish racing set.



I've only seen sewups roll off 2 times, both in the same race. We were riding back down from the 10,600' finish of the Sandia Crest Race in the mid 70's.

It was hot, maybe in the 90's and you could tell who was riding Clement red cement. It softened up and would run onto the rims. Sounded like a pack of wailing banshees with MAFAC brakes! I saw both guys go sailing off into the woods on hairpin turns after rolling their rear tires.

We used Pastali rim cement which didn't soften from heat. I passed a bunch of cars that were doing 45 mph in a long downhill straight away and had to apply the binders hard at the next bend - no problems. Same thing in the Durango to Silverton, Colorado Iron Horse Races.



The rim cements currently on the market are a lot more heat resistant, but I switched to Tufo rim tape and I'll never go back to glue!


Good points about the wheel builders and old rims...

I'm currently on the north side of 220 Lbs. trying to get back down under that weight. I ride sewups but only in areas where there aren't many goat heads and the roads are in good condition. Mostly in the spring after the winter rains have washed a lot of the debris and goat heads away.

Many of my sewup wheels have 36 or 32 hole 395g Mavic GP 4 rims. I feel comfortable riding Super Champion 350g Arc en Ceil rims. Put them on my most recent bike.

I'm running cheap Yellow Jersey 3 for $50 Servizio Corse tires. They have about a 21mm cross section - 90 psi on the front and 105 psi on the rear. If I blow one out, so what!



Back in the 70's I rode 290g Clement Paris-Roubaix red label cotton tires with a 28mm cross section. They were my all time favorites.

In 1976 we started riding road bikes off road in the mountains of Northern New Mexico and Southern Colorado. I built a set of tubular wheels for off road using a 400+ gr Akront rim on the front and an AVA rim that weighed over 500g on the rear. Heavy straight gage spokes and 1st generation Shimano 600 hubs. After bending the rear axle a few times I switched to a Zeus solid track axle and that fixed the problem.

We used cyclocross sewups from Milremo, d'Alessandro and Wolber plus I still have the Continental pictured below which still holds air!

I mention all this to point out the durability of well built sewup wheels. I still have that original set and did a minor truing a few years ago. They are still rideable today even though we pushed our bikes to the max riding dirt trails and roads!



I like sewups but I don't encourage or discourage folks from trying them. Tufo rim tape has made mounting sewups easy. Tufo also makes tire sealant that really works well in preventing and sealing small punctures (cuts in the thread up to 3mm in some cases). YMWV...



For some folks, these are the only kind of tires that will hold up!




verktyg

Chas.

verktyg 

Spot on olde chap!

verktyg

Chas.

Blue Belly

I'm about 180. My 28h rims are GL330 up front & GP4 in the back. I've destroyed a few GL330s(32h), when I was closer to 165-170. This is why I switched to GP4 for a rear rim. It's been a few years since I've bent a rim & I'm extra careful with the 28 hole rims.
So, to answer your question... I'd sell those for something more suitable. You can pick up some 36h rims pretty cheap. You might want to consider GP4's, front & back.

Kobe 

Thanks @verktyg for the great write-up on tubulars. I have never tried them before, mainly due to the skinny size and 22cm just does not seem like enough girth for a clyde.

I recently lost a few pounds so it seem like a good time for me to finally give them a try, at least for some of the flatter rides I do.

jeirvine 

There are plenty of tubular road tires bigger than 22mm. You can easily find 25 or 28.

Kobe 

Will they work on a rim that has a 22mm tire on it now? I know clinchers have a lot of leeway as far as rim size.

Is there a 25 or 28 that you would recommend?

miamijim

Maybe back in 1972....

i agree with you, modern rims are so much stronger that thye can easily handle low counts.

verktyg 

Any 700c tubular tire produced today will fit on 700c tubular rims (700c is also the size for standard tubular rims).

There are some companies starting to produce larger cross section sewups. Most of the ones that I've seen are rather expensive. I haven't been shopping for tires so I don't know what's current.

verktyg

Chas.

CliffordK

Those 28 hole Campy Record hubs must be mighty rare. I had some 32h hubs, and had troubles finding good rims to build them up with.

So, I have no doubt, if properly represented, with original skewers, they would command a pretty penny on E-Bay.

If you are dieting, perhaps hang them up in the garage until you loose 50 pounds, then ride them until they wear out and rebuild as needed.

embankmentlb

What exactly happens with a wheel that is too light? How does it fail?

Will the spokes not hold tension forcing the wheel to constantly be trued?
Does the wheel toco in mid ride!?

Blue Belly

They pop up every now & then. Not completely rate but, don't go too cheap usually. If he were to loose 50lbs & lace some different rims, it'd be a better bet. 280's aren't meant for the avg guy. More of an ultralight climber kind of chap.

vintagerando

What rims should I use if I want to retain the 28h Campy low flange hubs but use a regular rim not a tubular? Is there brand and type rim that would hold my weight? Someone mentione a "deep" "aero" wheel?
Is there a way to make it work with 28h hub and a more robust, strong rim? Mavic or HED?

ppg677

Most modern rims should work. Velocity Fusion would work nicely.

jeirvine 

Those Open SUP Mavics are a good deal, and a nice strong rim, if I may quote myself.

vintagerando

Another possible option is to use these 36h Campy high flange. But the spacing on my frame is 126mm and the hubs pictures are 120mm. Can a spacer be added or do I need a new axle? Can this hub work on the rear?

verktyg 

Either the rim or the spokes fail....

In classic thin walled light weight rims the metal around the ferrules or eyelets will start to crack and can eventually pull out.

This was a Mavic MA2 clincher rim that I kept track of as I continued to use it until it failed. You can see how the cracks developed.



This was a single eyelet Mavic MA2 rim, Most MA2 rims are double eyelet.



On a thin wall rim the cracks would spread faster and if a spoke pulled out of the rim, it most likely would become unrideable.


With low spoke count wheels there is more stress put on each individual spoke so failure is more likely than on a wheel with 32 or 36 spokes. The British used to use 32 spokes on the front wheels and 40 spokes on the rear!

A wheel that needs to be frequently re-tensioned is probably going to fail because the ferrules are starting to pull out of the rim.


As I mentioned before, a ~150 lb. rider in front of me taco'd a 28 spoke rear wheel honking up a very steep hill and took me out as he fell over. The wheel that failed had a substantial clincher rim with good quality properly tensioned stainless spokes. The hubs were Suntour Superbe. At the time I was in no position to analyze the failure but the rim was intact and there were no broken spokes.

A lighter weight rider with a smooth pedaling style on a good road surface may never have a problem with 28 spoke GEL 280 wheels. A strong or heavy rider throwing the bike side to side on a steep climb or hard sprint could taco a rear wheel.


One other thing, there are much higher forces put on the hub flanges with classic low spoke count wheels so flange failure is more of a possibility than with 32 or 36 spoke wheels.








verktyg

Chas.

verktyg 

Excellent choice!

If you measure the hub, it's probably 121mm OLN (Over Lock Nut) wide. It's a campy thing...

Some people say you can add a spacer and you're good to go.

Campy rear axles for 120mm 5 speed hubs were 129mm, 130mm, 131mm or 132mm wide. The axles stick out 4mm to 5mm per side from the lock nuts.

If you add to 4mm to 5mm of spacers to make the axle 126mm OLN that leaves maybe 2mm to 3mm sticking out per side. I prefer at least 4mm per side.

Campy made 125mm and 126mm wide rear hubs that used 134mm, 136mm or 137mm wide axles. I'd look for one of those Campy axles or better yet, get a Wheels Mfg. part number AXLE-08 for about $15, They're 141mm long. They can be easily cut down to 134mm to 136mm wide with a fine toothed hacksaw.

Thread a lock nut onto the axle to use as a guide for the hacksaw. When you unscrew the nut it will remove the burrs in the threads.

5 speed freewheels are about 29mm to 30mm wide, 6 speeds are 34mm to 36mm wide. You'll need to put spacers on the freewheel side. The wheel will need to be re-dished.

verktyg

Chas.

vintagerando

Ahhh..verktyg...I am on the cusp of solving this wheel dilemma! I can feel the wind as I glide on my (finally complete) Ted Wojcik ride.