Matariki

I picked this up at a somewhat reasonable price knowing that it was not likely to be authentic. I'm sure that the seller thought I was working him when I brought up the topic of Colnago fakes. He had been told by the original owner that it was bought directly from the Colnago factory in Italy in the 80's. It came equipped with a full Campy Super Record Gruppo, which was my main interest.

The frame has double-tapered seat stays and 80's correct decals, but the spade cutouts on the fork and BB aren't quite right. The most interesting thing is that the RD cable routes under the bottom bracket, through the bottom of the seat stay at an angle, and then out again through a cable stop. Measurements make it Italian with likely DB tubing (27.2 seat post). DOs are Campy as well. "19" is stamped on the DS rear.

Anyone have any idea what it is?


Here's a link to more photos

daf1009

Based on my limited knowledge, I would agree that it is a "knock off" of some sort...the fork crown spade looks really bad...

OldsCOOL

Is there chrome under the paint of the fork crown? The non-recessed brake hole and "Club-only" panto looks similar to the mid-70's Colnago issue. Do the fork dropouts have Brev. Campagnolo stamped in them?

Giacomo 1 

Didn't Colnago build a bike that he labelled Cornello, or something similar, that used the clubs, but was different than their usual club?

I think @bianchigirl has one...

OldsCOOL

Here is a pic from my '77 Super:

plonz 

First knock off I've seen where they have the club stampings at all. My Colnago Super has these and many more stampings including COLNAGO with the clubs on the fork crown.

I do find it interesting that it has the cutout on the bottom side of the crankcase lug and appears to have the club stamping on the inside of the Fork lug as well. That's a fair amount of detail to add given the omission of some of the more prominent stampings we'd expect to see. I don't know enough about all the Colnagos models but maybe it's the real thing.

Matariki

Yes there is chrome under the paint of the crown and yes the fork dropouts are stamped as you describe. A closer examination of the brake holes points to them having been drilled out for recessed nuts.

I knew that the older BB cutouts were shaped the way that mine is, however the top-tube cable guides made me think that this was a mid-80s frame as described.


Thanks

88prelude

My vote is fake. The internal rear chain stay cable routing is intriguing. Trek had rear chain stay internal cable routing from 85-89, but it went all the way through the chain stay. Bianchi also had a model in 86 with it that resembles the chain stay of your bike. The frame could be from that era but honestly I'm just rambling.

Another interesting detail are the loops for the cable guides on the bottom of the BB shell.

OldsCOOL

Another Colnago specific: does the fork have clubs on the inner blades near where the wheel/tire passes through?

Matariki

No, it has tangs with 2 holes. The top is a bit bigger than the bottom.

lostarchitect 

I'm not an expert, but I think it may be real.

I think the fork spade looks bad due to crappy touch up paint.

88prelude

The more I look at the fork, I think the fork might be from a Colnago and the pantograph was just done poorly like you say. But I'm not seeing it with the frame. Way too many oddities. Maybe a frame builder "modernized" it in the mid 80s. I think there should be more intricate details on the lugs, stays, BB shell that point to a Colnago build.

It's a cool looking bike either way. I'd ride it for sure.
@OldsCOOL Does your 77 Have engravings/stamps on any of the lugs?

lostarchitect 

That's what I'm thinking: It was "updated" and repainted in the 80's. The BB cutout seems to match the Super posted above pretty closely.

OldsCOOL

I agree with you on the frame. That RD cable routing is odd. The '77 Super was rather plain as far as panto. Here is the headlug/dt joint, very crisp panto:

88prelude

Thanks! That's what has me the most concerned about the frame. There should be a club in at least one of the lugsets somewhere. Taken from Class Rendezvous: I wonder if whoever "modernized" the bike also decided to cut-out the club in the BB shell and then add the looped cable guides.

miamijim

Is there a number stamped into the fork steerer tube? Any pics of the chainstay bridge? My initial thoughs are no, its a Colnago.

verktyg 

From 1976 on Colnago used Campy's 1010B style short rear dropouts. Your frame has standard Campy long 1010A dropouts.



Also, the seat stay tops would have been fluted on 1970's frames and flat with Colnago stamped into them on frames from 1980 on.



1983 BB.




Chuck Schmidt has a good Colnago time line:

Velo-Retro

verktyg

Chas.

Drillium Dude 

An odd duck. Cutout in the BB shell looks genuine - and the shell looks very thin in the center, like a mid/late 70s shell would be. Fork crown clovers also look genuine. What I don't get are the flat-topped seatstay caps, cable guides under the BB shell, internal rear derailleur cable and of course the missing lower head lug clover cut out. Could be a lower-on-the-scale, low-production "club" frame. It's possible it was modded at one point.

Some pics to ponder follow

Genuine early-to-mid 70s BB shell clover cut out (1973):



1978:



Note the edges on the 1978 clover cut out are thinner, closer to what the OP shows us in his photo.

Fork crown clover (1973):



That fork also uses two drillings in the tangs, the top one a bit larger diameter than the bottom one. You can just make out the second one above the tire in this shot.

I think this is genuine, but a less high-end version, perhaps made for a specific market (Colnago exported frames to Holland that I understand were not widely available elsewhere).

Just my two cents worth, and surely worth every penny.

DD

OldsCOOL

Bizarre but certainly not in any kind of bad way. You have a delightful mystery to solve.

Matariki

The number "19" is stamped on the steerer tube. This corresponds to the "19" stamped on the dropout. I'm not sure what this is, perhaps serial #. I initially thought that it was a frame size but this is a 52 cm frame and 19" doesn't match that. The Super Record headset obviously had too great of a stack height for this frame (by at least 6 mm). This probably means that it was originally fitted with a Campy Gran Sport headset, supporting the idea that this was a lower-ended frame.

The paint is likely a respray, and is rather thin so you can see some imperfections in prep under it. It may have had some mods before the respray, but the thing that has me scratching my head is the chainstay internal cable guide. This was in an area that was chromed, and I can't imagine that any one would modify a frame, rechrome it, and then do a so-so paint job.

So, I'll continue to do some more research, but it sounds like the vote swings toward it being a real mid-70s Colnago, likely made for a special market.

I appreciate all the help. I do plan to sell this frame and the more info I can pass to the buyer the better.

Last ride 76 

The stamp on the rear dropout and fork is same typeface and pairing technique Colnago used at the time. Bb looks real. Without the flat stay caps, I would bet genuine Colnago with later mods. With the flat caps...something produced by contract workers, maybe an experimental lower line... sprint, jr. ??? What I find weird besides the seat stay caps, and the internal rear d cable routing, is that the fork crown/tang combination is of an early (72-74) Super.
That makes no sense to me at all.


Ahha, I've got it!
1973 Colnago Super, damaged seat stays were repaired and modifications were added then or at an even later date.
Anybody buy it?
Cheers, Eric

Drillium Dude 

A rear-end repair could be a feasible explanation - but what about the missing clover cut-out in the lower head lug? Every Super or Mexico had it. Sprint-level? I think that's a better bet, but if so, why the cut-out BB shell?

And the numbers match, so the fork is most likely original to the frame. And that fork crown is an early-70s Super/Mexico crown. A weird one...

DD

Last ride 76 

Dang, forgot about the lower head lug missing the club.
Maybe a worse accident, where they had to replace head tube also?
Cause if they just had to replace down tube, probably could have reused lug, but maybe not.
Sprint doesn't make much sense with that fork though, does it? I doubt they were working on a lower line that early.
Thanks for pointing out the shoddy detective work.
Cheers, Eric

repechage

Not a good indicator, my '72-73 has graduated holes in the tangs, the '73-'74 has one "club" per.

Could well be a Colnago fork mated to a different frame. Yes, has a Colnago cutout on the BB shell, but the rest for he frame metalwork does not provide a match.

repechage

I've got a set of number stamps… want a matching frame and fork?

The under the BB cable routing and what looks like through the seat stay cable routing too… suggest to me a respray. No telling what append when the paint was off.