KonAaron Snake 

That's outrageous...I wouldn't have been as patient as you were. I know who you're talking about and I sort of remember the flap. I didn't realize it was a business for him.

RobbieTunes

Not quite. Avg turnaround is 4-5 months.

I'll elaborate, but only from my experience. I had a frame re-done, turnkey operation. It was chrome under the paint. Shop was expected to strip, prepare, and paint the frame, including masking of chrome lugs, R chain stay, dropouts, fork ends, and DT shifter bosses. Once primer and base coat was applied, shop was to wet-sand, apply decals, and then clear coat over the decals. It took a little over 5 months. The shops do not simply work on one frame at a time; it's also not a production run with paint booth time being scheduled on a non-stop basis, etc. He promised me the frame in 3 months. I did not complain.

I thought it was a little long, so when I went to 3 different NAHBS shows, I asked the builders. I came away with distinct impressions:
a-If they could paint in-house, they did. This gave them control over the scheduling, handling of the frame, and finished product.
b-If they had a reliable, skilled painter, including a specific turnaround time, they guarded that info closely.
c-Their "captive" painters took 3-4 months, sometimes longer.
d-Their "random" painters often took 5-6 months.
e-Their turnaround time on in-house painting was a month, minimum.
f-Often, there were do-overs.
g-When they decided, after waiting and waiting, to paint in-house, they had a steep learning curve and plenty of un-billed expense before they could turn out a product comparable to what they were getting from professional painters.
h-They had little choice but to pass on costs and time delays to the customer. They'd built the frame, and simply had to wait like everyone else.

"My" painter did an entirely professional job for about $400. He said "never again" at that price for that kind of work. He gets $500 to do Sting-Ray frames as close to original as I've ever seen, and has no promised turn-around time. He doesn't make a living painting frames, but he does make a living painting anything that needs painting. I saw him paint a fender only on a Ferrari Enzo, and you simply couldn't tell it had been done. He specialized in motorcycle custom work, helmets, flames, etc. He said the bike frame was a PITA. He's since retired.

Generally, I use a powder-coater. They are skilled, but not artisans or craftsmen. He takes a week to two weeks. He simply blasts the metal. To him it's not a bike, it's a bunch of tubes that need to be blasted and coated, period. He's done some nice work, and some not so great, but again, it could be a piece of lawn furniture or a Farm-All fender, for its importance to him. It's a scheduled piece of metal.

Every time I asked a builder at NAHBS shows about their painter/time frames, the first thing they did was roll their eyes. I take it the industry has a "norm" and that norm is fairly unpredictable.

I imagine a few painters can set up like these franchise body shops, with specific people to do specific operations on a daily basis, able to schedule repair, prep, paint, decal, and clear, etc over the long haul with some volume. I doubt there are many, and I doubt the volume is very strong. Even new frame builders have problems with paint shops. It just seems the way it is.

mtnbke

Are you one of those people that rant and rage when people are going three miles under the Speed LIMIT because you don't understand the difference in meaning between the terms Limit and Minimum? The entire point of why the poster was so unreasonable, and why his tantrums criticizing CycleArt were so unreasonable and unfair is that HE didn't understand the difference between a deadline and an an estimated time of delivery. They was no deadline communicated. Like any service, if there is time sensitivity the customer can always pay more for priority in the queue if that is an issue to them.

Its astounding that the reasons are lost on you. The reason it takes 6 months when you think it should take 2 days is they do GREAT WORK at a price that many many people are willing to pay for their great work. They aren't just watching YouTube for six months then working on one bike the last two days. They have hundreds of bikes they work on. Each taking, to use your prediction roughly two days. However, I strongly expect that each bike takes much longer than that even if they had nothing in queue. Bikes have multiple layers of paint that have to be sprayed, sanded, cured. There is a time factor and a load balancing factor for the business. While a given bike might be ready for the "next step" there might be a hundred other business needs that need done first, that is a hundred other bikes that are also ready for their "next step."

Where things get wacky is when customers change the spec and order midstream. That is EXACTLY what was lost in all the whining. He changed what he was requesting on his Colnago after that had the bike. At the very least shops don't like that, and it causes delays in the queue. Imagine if every customer did that. It could potentially cause reasonable expectations and estimates to go out the window when everyone changes what they want to something more involved.

My goodness they are a business. They have a lot of business for a reason. You want good work, you will probably wait for it. He had a very complicated repair involving a very specific piece of vintage tubing on a very classic Colnago. He's very happy with both the repair and the work. What the problem was is your problem. Unreasonable expectations. A comprehension problem misinterpreting an estimated time of delivery with a deadline.

Next time he should take his bikes to some crappy resprayer who doesn't do good repair or respray work and doesn't have any customers. He'd get it returned quickly. That's the alternative.

lostarchitect 

Man, we all understand that an estimate is just that. If I get an estimate that something will take 6 weeks and it takes 7 or even 8, no big deal. If it takes 6 MONTHS, that is a problem because the timeframe in no way resembles the estimate. To top that off, if I don't get a call or email saying, "Very sorry, but we're all backed up and this is going to take longer than we thought," that is a problem too. And further, if I say, "Well where are you at with this now?" and the response is, "Pay me $15 and I'll show you," THAT is a problem too. The problems keep adding up here, you see?

You're right, they're a business: and when a business treats customers badly, it gets around.

(ps: As for this specific incident, I don't see where he changed the scope in his description of what happened.)

miamijim

Whatever.....you know nothing about me but here's more than I should tell you..... If I show up for work late people die. I'm punctual. I leave early. I drive the speed limit because if I get an accident people will die.

I was in the service industry for a long time so I know how it works....get them in the door first. Tell then its only a 10 minute wait when its really 20 so they don't go to another restaurant. Tell them its a 3 month wait when you know its 5 so they don't bring their frame somewhere else.

carbomb

just when you thought it was over...

@lostarchitect - you won't find the changes in "spec and order midstream" because they don't exist

iab

Except you only know one side of the story. The problem is, when a customer treats a business badly, it doesn't get around.

bikingshearer 

I've never had him be faster than his time estimate. I've also never been in a hurry to get the frame back, nor have I ever made any kind of effort to monitor the progress. My guess - and it is only a guess - is that the proverbial squeaky wheel will get the grease, but I have never put that to the test.

The main thing, in my book, is he knows his stuff, does good work, charges a reasonable price, is a lot of fun to talk with, and is local.

repechage

I reread the Colnago rear and restoration thread. Only change in scope I could find was that after a delayed full sand blast possibly a seat tube dent was found and corrected NIC- not fully clear.
Everything else from report was delineated at the estimate level where an exploratory blast of the Non drive side seat stay revealed the same problem as the drive side.
The metalwork it appears took the longest chunk of time.
After is was in color, two more weeks to apply graphics, clear and paint fill the lug details.
Total duration 8/18 to 11/15, originally stated it would be less than 8 weeks.

repechage

In principle, I agree. But, I am aware of others who have gone down this road with the same firm, with equal or matching issues. In this case as it matched other experiences related to me, I find the report pretty credible. One error I see if any was not asking if there would be a charge to snap some progress images before, nor was there an advisory of the cost upfront. This is a repeated issue. A reasonable person would think that if the firm had experienced resistance with this in the past, ( I am aware there has been) they would be more upfront rather than continually surprising clients. Another is that seat tube dents are common, from shop clamps and or derailleur attachment areas. Why not blast a bit more early on and include that in the deal? Strategic "Not in Contract" stuff is I think bogus.

Drillium Dude 

Regarding the seat tube dent being discovered later on: he asked several times for the frame to be completely blasted so that he would know up front about any/all issues. He relates this in the thread.

I just spilled coffee all over my laptop. Smh...

DD

lostarchitect 

That's true, but when complaints pile up, people start wondering why.

iab

It may be a pattern, but everyone in this thread is jumping all over the Colnago story, one incident where we only know one side. There are also a lot of glowing reviews in this thread. Far more than negative.

Quite simply, I don't know if they are "good" or "bad" and would reserve judgement until after any interaction.

And as I wrote before, if a customer was nickel and diming me and asked me to do something out of scope (like taking pictures), I'd charge them. Lawyers do the same at $350/hr with a 15 minute minimum. Welcome to reality.

iab

I have only heard the Colnago story. I don't consider that a pile.

lostarchitect 

That's you.

KonAaron Snake 

I think IAB makes a good point, but he's (dd) far from the only one to tell cyclart horror stories. There's a lot of smoke and it seems a reasonable chance of a problem. On ebay someone with a 90 rating is, to most, a potential problem. 10% of people had a problem. The vast majority were happy...but 10% is a warning sign (especially for someone charging top dollar).

TimmyT 

Mlamp

nice.....


There is a lot of reference to the colnago story imo. That does seem to be THE story with cyclart. However there still seems to be similar complants and/or hassles with almost all shops mentioned.

Taking the focus off of cyclart, I wonder if there is a way to create a "Best all around" shop by region rating system. Maybe we could start with a poll system of restore shops within certain regions. The problem is, I dont want to ship my bike from CA to groody bros in Ohio. Neither do I want to rule out Cyclart over one persons terrible experience. So for instance, what are the best rated shops in the Northwest, Southwest, Northeast and .... fly over states, etc. (I'm from one so I can say that) It's clear that there are a lot of very qualified opinions here that can be trusted. (Unlike yelp ratings for bull**** restaurants in SF)

Any way, just a thought....

Cheers

iab

And Merrim-Webster, Oxford and Cambridge.

iab

Actually, dd didn't tell the story. It was shnibop. Second, if that is what you consider horrific, guess again. Just read Rad/55's Tete painting story. And finally, while a first person story carries a lot of weight, I know a guy who knows a guy stories are pretty much worthless.

rhm

On the bright side, maybe all the annoyance with painters will discourage people from repainting bikes that don't really need it.

RobbieTunes

My general take is that you send the frame off, and simply forget about it until it's done, almost regardless of where you send it. That seems to be the approach I've gotten from new frame builders and restoration guys. I will quote one builder/painter, "If you want it on a certain deadline, come and take my frame class, and bring it with you." I understand completely, only because I've had the experience and asked the questions.

CV-6 

That is the way to do it. You make sure all the details are correct before sending it off and then just go on with life. I have never asked for or specified a done date. Then one day you get an email or call that it is done. I have done this with Franklin and with Southwest Frameworks.

lostarchitect 

Are we defining words here? What does that even mean? My point was that just because you have only heard one complaint does not mean there is only one.

-holiday76

a few thoughts :

- You just can't rush good art these days. Unless you buy it at Ikea, but you still need to walk through that damn maze of crap to find it.
- Do you ask your mechanic for pictures half way through? Your Lawyer? The guy you commissioned to build that statue of Donald Trump?
- Your bike is a bike, not your child, relax.
- Local Idiot To Post Comment On Internet - The Onion - America's Finest News Source
- some companies large and small should just be avoided, and sometimes it costs a fee to find that out.