Steve Whitlatch 

Eating my popcorn and enjoying the show. I have no idea who is winning this fight but it sure is exciting.

t

KonAaron Snake 

Seriously. I think I understand about 62% of the dialogue...putting it right there with Ulysses. What's clear is don't argue with either of them about engineering!

Steve Whitlatch 

Yep!!

Ed.

Good Grief! It's my Plastic Pig!



I just keep in mind what Mr Robinson said.

sloar 

I get the most compliments when I'm riding one of my old cruisers loaded with horn tank, fender lights and luggage rack. Brings back a lot of memories for the older folks.

Ed.

From the Wiki's mouth - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon...forced_polymer

kunsunoke 

So, polyacryonitrile and rayon are not polymers?

Don't believe me, though - https://zoltek.com/carbonfiber/how-is-it-made/

Except that the element in this particular case has actually been a plastic, prior to the carbonization process.

It's a Strawman, too, apparently.

Is epoxy resin not a polymer?

Yes, there are some that consider bike CF as inferior material, and they do use "plastic" as a snark. I'm not using the term that way, and even if I was, you're not the Thought Police.

I'll take that statement as a concession on your part.

Because you know less about this topic than I do.

iab

Since when do building blocks equal the end material?

Or maybe you don't understand the meaning of prior?

Still a composite.

fender1

Welcome to science/engineering nerd smack down!

KonAaron Snake 

I love debates like this...the parts I understand anyway.

Ed.

Good Grief - still swinging! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibre-reinforced_plastic

kunsunoke 

It happens frequently in the world of polymers. Plastics don't stop being plastics just because they've been loaded with fibers or made harder from cross linking.

I think it was you that said "not, nor ever", right? And since PAN and rayon are both polymers, you know what makes you, don't you?

Yes, a plastic composite.

Wileyone 

Is Silicone a plastic?

OldsCOOL

Steve Whitlatch 

I dunno? They do call it plastic surgery? Not likely going to make men argue about it.

Wileyone 

I usually look at "them" as the Gift that keeps on giving.

Ed.

I refer you to post #54 . (Tho yours clearly shows more effort.)

iab

By that "logic", since hydrogen gas is made from hydrocarbon, it must be oil.

A carbon fiber reinforced epoxy (or acrylic) composite.

Not plastic.

rhm

Well, this is very educational. My takeaway is that, regardless whether carbon fiber composite is plastic or not, it's close enough that someone can pretend to ignore the tone with which we use the word. I suggest that in order to demonstrate the superiority of our steel bikes we develop a new and better derogatory term for carbon fiber frames, one that is technically accurate but still conveys a righteous disdain for such a faddish material. Sigh. This happens so often, too! It used to make people hopping mad to be called 'yankees,' and now people claim the badge with pride, even when they're not, properly speaking, yankees at all.

Ed.

Wait, wait, don't tell me - all this time I thought it the other way around, and that hydrogen came first. Heck, I can get it from water; don't need no stinkin' hydrocarbon to 'make' H2.

kunsunoke 

I know I'm wasting my time, but here's the actual logical progression.

The matrix is polymeric - plastic material; hasn't been cross-linked, so it's easy to form, impregnate into reinforcing fiber weaves, and mold.

The matrix (plastic) is used to impregnate a weave of material carbonized from polymeric material.

The matrix hardens - goes from being one kind of plastic (low molecular weight and non-networked) to high-molecular weight, extensively networked and hard, such that it has enhanced structural properties and can be used in its molded form (e.g. the part; in this case a bicycle frame). The carbon fiber that was originally a polymer is not the plastic but the reinforcement for the matrix - hence the term "reinforced plastic composite".

The resin does not become non-polymeric in the process. It goes from being one form of plastic to another, reinforced form of the same plastic.

Recall that it was you that said carbon fiber is and never was a plastic/polymer. You were proved wrong about that. Now you're just repeating what you originally said, over and over, hoping nobody notices.

Cured epoxies and acrylics are plastics. When molded with CF weave or filler they become reinforced plastic composites.

The chicken's about to die. Just stop.

Ed.

iab

And no matter how often you deny it, carbon fiber is and always will be elemental carbon. Exactly like elemental hydrogen is and always an element.

For some bizarre reason, you think the previous form, prior to a chemical or phase or any other type of change defines the new chemical makeup of said material. Complete and utter nonsense. Actually, it is now sad and pathetic.

But if we adhere to this "logic", there is no matter, everything is energy.

But go ahead, water isn't water. It's hydrogen. No, it's water.

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iab

This is the saddest part.

There is no doubt I know next to nothing about materials.

But I do know the difference between an element and a molecule. Not only a molecule, a particular type of molecule.

Ask your engineer buddies if they do too.

dddd

Is it Fiber Reinforced Plastic, or Plastic "Matrixed" Fiber?

Might depend on what percentages of the materials are involved.

Or might depend on the percentage of rigidity contributed by each material(?).

Definitely a composite however, and often referred to simply as Carbon Composite when the carbon is the source of most of the part's strength.