justin10054

I'm looking into the possibility of building up a bike with cantilever brakes, but I really don't know anything about them. What is there to know in terms of leverage/stopping power? What about mounting hardware? Are the front and rear units different or the same? How do you adjust the pads with those wacky wedged washer thingies?

I like the looks of some of the old Dia Compe and Suntour models from the 80s. Is buying a used set on ebay a total gamble in terms of getting all the right hardware?

I saw these posted in another thread and really like the look of them. Is that a good model to look out for?




Any advice, instructions, or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

The Golden Boy 

My favorite are the Suntour XC Pro brakes:

justin10054

What's the SunTour XC hierarchy? Is "Pro" better than "Expert"?

Someone on ebay has a NOS set of the XC Pro brakes, but at $150 it's a little more than I'd want to spend. Or is that the going rate? It's not like you can just walk into a store and buy them.

poprad

Whatever kind you get, make sure to get levers with the correct pull/leverage. If you try to use standard caliper levers you'll have horrible braking. Sheldon's site has a whole diatribe on setup of the yoke cable:

The Geometry of Cantilever Brakes

It's all the primer you need to understand their function and advantages.

79pmooney

The OEM Shimano cantis that came on my Miyata 610, early to mid '80s, have been really good. Nothing fancy but they do what they are supposed to do, stop me with no fuss. They have been on my Peter Mooney the past 25 years. I have no idea what model munber they are, but I suspect there are more around for not a whole lot of money. They are the ones with the characteristic triangle when looked from the front or rear. Other than the triangle and being forged, not all that different from the ancient Mafac cantis.

Ben

SkyDog75

First things first: The frame and fork will need brazed-on cantilever brake bosses. In other words, the bike needs to be made for cantilever brakes -- you can't just add 'em. (Not without some brazing skill and equipment, which most of us don't have.)

They stop just fine if you've got 'em adjusted well, but that's the trick. Some people find adjusting them to be trickier than other types of brakes like calipers or linear pull v-brakes.

Mounting hardware, like I mentioned above, are studs brazed on to your frame and fork. Each brake arm slides onto that stud, then you just bolt it into place.

Front and rear units are the same.

Hopefully, wedged/curved washers will make sense when you've got them in your hands. Those shaped washers allow you to set the pads to your desired angle, both up/down and toe-in.

The more you know about cantilever brakes, the less of a gamble it is. If you've worked with them, you can probably eyeball the auction to make sure the necessary parts are included. Or if they're not included, you can figure out if they're available. For example, some brakes have a proprietary straddle cable or external springs. If those items are missing and have been out of production for a long time, you might have a hard time finding replacement parts.

One last point, which is something I just recently learned: You'll find that older bikes, like mid-1980s and earlier, may have cantilever brake bosses spaced more narrowly than newer bikes. Because of that, a number of new brakes won't work on those old frames with narrowly spaced bosses. Old brakes might be easier to get working on newer frames with wider bosses since you can just adjust where the post is clamped into the brake arm. But even that could be problematic if the arc of the pad contacts something like maybe a wide tire. To avoid this problem, I'd suggest trying to stay with brakes that are appropriate for the period of the frame & fork.

clubman 

Those are beautiful and somewhat rare cantis.Go for any Shimano's from the late 80's and they'll work. Coops and bike shops will have missing parts. Many small parts come with replacement pads. Loosen up or replace pads with allen keys and cables with metric wrenches. It all makes sense when you dive into them.Clean and grease posts. Rough up pads, clean rims and do some "toe-in" Look up 3rd hand tool and improvise. Use pics online to show you well set up brakes and imitate cable lengths and geometries. Put caps on end of cables or use super-glue. Frayed cables suk.

justin10054

I was under the impression that you could use standard road levers with cantilever brakes. I've seen many bikes set up this way.

How horrible are we talking here? After riding a lot with Campy sidepulls, I've gotten used to braking early.

justin10054

Regarding the mounting hardware, I've seen sets on ebay ranging from nothing at all (not even bolts) all the way to ones complete with all sorts of exotic-looking bushings and washers. Does it depend on the model of brake? Am I better off looking for a NOS set to ensure I get all the necessary hardware?

rhm

EBay is a form of legal gambling. Sometimes you don't know what you're getting. In general, a well photographed and accurately described item will bring a higher price than a vague one, so I tend to be more willing to gamble with small sums. If something important is not shown in the photos, ask the seller what's included, but don't expect a cogent reply for a $10 item.

The Golden Boy 

XC Pro was ALWAYS the top of the line stuff.

XC Comp was ALWAYS right below it.

Plain old XC and XC 9000 was also the top of the line.

There were bunches of other groups that came and went in that last 10 years, so I just focus on the ones I recognize and the ones that look the nicest to me.

I don't think I'd pay $150 for a set of XC Pro brakes... before you even consider paying that, you really need to learn more about what's cool to you.

When I got my first set of XC Pro brakes- I couldn't figure out how to mount them- after a thread or two of asking questions here, and then dicking with them for a bit- they totally made sense.

Replacing pads on the old XT BR-MC70 brakes was also a good learning experience. It's good to learn there's no 'voodoo' about them, and figure out how to make them do what you want.

On the other hand- I think the people that engineered roller cam brakes were in league with the devil.

Grand Bois

Maybe poprad is somehow confusing cantilevers with V-Brakes.

SkyDog75

Yes, it depends on the model somewhat, but the basics are the same.

• They'll all need bolts, which are fortunately pretty standard.
• They'll all need a straddle cable or link of some sort. If it's a traditional straddle cable, you'll also need a yoke to attach it to the brake cable that runs from the lever. Be aware that some brakes require proprietary straddle cables, which may be difficult to source.
• They'll all need a cable hanger, for front and rear. This won't typically come with the brakes because the type of hangers you'll need depends on the bike you're fastening them to. For example, for the front brake, you can mount a hanger from the headset, stem, or fork. If you're using a headset hanger, you'll need one that matches the headset size and type.
• They'll all need springs. Sometimes they're built-in on each arm. Sometimes, like in the pic you linked above, they're separate pieces.

If you have familiarity with how cantilever brakes work, you can eyeball a lot of this stuff when looking at brakes for sale. Otherwise, compare pics and maybe even check out documentation for new cantis. They still work the same, so the same principles apply even if the parts have been updated.

mstateglfr 

er?
Cantis work fine with road levers, both aero and non-aero.

Glennfordx4

I started to think I had a fetish with Cantilever brakes for awhile because of all the sets I collected thru the years. Some other points to look for that can help picking a good set of Canti Brakes to use.

Some of the Higher end brakes & newer brake sets will have centering screws either on one side or both sides that will make it much easier to set up and fine tune then brakes without ( you have to bend springs to center ) the adjusting screws. Here's a example on these XT's I found,
Vintage Shimano Deore XT Cantilever Brakes BR M734 Front Rear Set Black Manual | eBay

Some Canti set ups use standard V-brake/Road style brake pads and IMHO are much easier to set up and adjust then standard Post style pads. Like these Avid's Here,
Avid Shorty Cantiver Brakes Caliper Set | eBay

Glenn

justin10054

Wouldn't that be Charlie Cunningham? He does seem kinda like a mad scientist a little bit.

I wouldn't mind trying out those roller cam brakes some day. My dad had a Schwinn High Sierra with them back in the day and he speaks fondly of them.

poprad

Actually, I am speaking about cantis. While many times they will work just fine with road levers, it's not always the case. Depending on the canti in question and the amount of yoke cable, etc, your results can vary widely. I once used a set of Shimano road levers, (don't recall the model) with some Paul nearly-horizontal cantis and the levers did not have enough mechanical advantage. They felt great on the stand (per the Sheldon article where I figured out the issue) but did not have enough MA to compress the pads with adequate force. When I switched to a set of levers with a higher MA they worked flawlessly.

One article discussing this issue is here:

Gimme a brake: Brake options for 'cross - VeloNews.com

Often the disappointment expressed by users about the lack of stopping power with their cantis is just this issue, levers with too-low MA. It all depends on the cantis you choose and the setup of the connector yoke. Again, your setup may work just fine, and there is a lot of gray area between optimal and poor, but it's not as simple as "all road levers for sidepulls work fine for all cantis." I probably overstated this issue by saying the OP would have "horrible braking," but it is something that requires consideration and sometimes experimentation.

fietsbob

almost no pad height adjustment, a slight bit right around the mounting bolt, via eccentric you turn before tightening the bolt

and the plain post brake shoes , that are not included.


if this is your first mechanical task with any cantilever brake, you have some learning ahead.

PaintItCeleste

I sort of got a thing for canti brakes recently. I think mostly due to my desire for a more multi-purpose, functional bicycle. I assembled a touring/commuter bicycle for the wife and love the clearance for all things practical (fenders, large tires, etc.). I definitely learned some lessons noted above, the hard way. I would echo them and generally state: Be prepared to goof up and possibly buy more than you needed to. There are a lot of variables at play and I believe even the best planning will only get you so far without having any previous hands-on experience. And I only say this to encourage you to move forward (not to dissuade). I'm building a second touring bicycle for myself now and am indeed using the knowledge I gained from the first time around.

Some things I definitely agree should be considered:

1. Post spacing: Like @SkyDog75, I too ran into this recently. Some bikes, the two I worked on were early-mid 80s Japanese bikes (a 1982 Univega Gran Tourismo and a 1985 Miyata Two Ten - both made by Miyata) had narrower space between the posts, such that modern cantilever brakes simply wouldn't fit between the rear stay and the wheel/rim. Even with slim pads.

2. Wheel size: Both the aforementioned bikes were originally designed with 27" wheels and I converted them to 700c. In doing this, you change the vertical distance between the rim and where that canti-post has been brazed onto the frame. In my example, the pads of my brakes, if not adjusted, were then hitting the tire of my 700c wheel. With the right kind of cantilever brake (for your given bike), making this adjustment was no problem. Some cantilever brakes, however, may have far less adjustment and thus be less forgiving as to what bike frames and wheel sizes they can be compatible with.

3. Overall brake design/shape relative to your needs: If you look up "Touring Cantis" you will notice some cantilever brakes are designed with the straddle cable higher up on the brake arm (and closer to the center of the bicycle frame) as opposed to other cantilever brakes where the arms swing way out wide and the straddle cable seems to attach to the arm at a point almost parallel with the mounting post. Personally, I can't speak to the pros/cons of these differences from a physics point of view. I can say, consider your needs for your bicycle. The concept with the touring canti, I believe, relates to keeping the brakes out of the way of your pannier bags which you would likely be using in a touring scenario (possibly both on front and back). Getting those wider cantis and attempting to throw some panniers on could interfere with your braking and thus be quite problematic. I'm sure Sheldon discusses this on his site (Again, I believe it relates to mechanical advantage but I need to go re-read that section...).

SJX426 

AND there is the C&V Scott Peterson Self Energizing brakes. I have the Suntour version on my Tandem. Talk about fun to set up!

KonAaron Snake 

Those are mine...I've been looking for another pair ever since getting these from another member. That was 5 years ago...don't even waste your time looking. They're the nicest I've used.

There are plenty of other quality cantis out there. Two basic styles - touring/tandem with wider arms and the narrower style favored by cx/MTB guys. My favorite combo for most bikes is a wife profile front and narrow rear. Paul makes excellent cantis, not cheap. The old mafacs are fantastic.

Darth Lefty 

Paul wide and IRD "Cafam" are both geometric copies of the Mafac wide brake. I have a pair of the Pauls on my Cannondale cross commuter. I'm not especially happy with them but they came to me heavily used... I am meaning to try new pads and swapping the spacers to get the cable angle closer to right.

Grand Bois

I had those on the rear of a Trek MTB. I liked them. You found them hard to set up?

SJX426 

Yup. I removed them from the post. The difficulty was in determining how much pre load was needed in tightening them down to get the correct rotation of the arm. As you may know. The center of arm pivot is on a helix. As the caliper is actuated, it moves forward in the direction of the rim rotation. The ramp rate acutally increases the mechanical advantage or "assists" in the force applied when it drags on the rim surface. Kind of like power brakes.

Given the distance from the front of a Tandem to the rear brakes and the potential for cable drag, this is a great application. If the initial set of rotation is too loose, the "assist" isn't actuated. If it is rotated too far, then it bottoms out on the helix and the pads don't get near the rim. It has to be just right and there isn't a reference point to start with, that I could find or have described in the Suntour installation instructions.

That is just one side! Now you need to set up the second side with the same preload or it doesn't apply the force evenly.

I think the cited instructions for canti's address the straddle cable setup. That is the next important adjustment to make sure you get maximum applied actuation. It will vary based on the canti physical configuration, i.e. often the cable needs to be 90 degrees from the canti arm when the brake is applied to maximize the force from the lever, or something like that.

[IMG]P1010340 by superissimo_83, on Flickr[/IMG]

Grand Bois

They're a little different to set up, but I don't recall that it was much of a struggle. I work on bikes to relax, so I'm never in a hurry.

They have a reputation for locking up. That's why Suntour made their version rear only with a conventional canti for the front. I never had that happen. I wish I had switched the brakes before I sold that bike.