pastorbobnlnh 

Over the summer @mtnbke started a thread about Joe's RD, a very low production American made rear derailleur, asking how they worked. I had never heard of or seen one. I was curious and joined in the discussion, offering my 2 cents here and there.

mtnbke offered to loan me his Joe's RD to try it out and sent it my way in early September. I tried to mount it to my '71 Paramount, but it was a no go. Not enough dish in the wheel and the inside cage banged the spokes in order to reach the largest sprocket on a 5 speed freewheel.

A few days ago I got the brilliant idea to try it on my 1962 Campagnolo equipped Schwinn Continental. So last night I had some time to wrench and did just this. So with no further delay, here it is.



Now for those who are curious, yes that is a Nuovo Record crankset (49T & 42T) and a Valentino push rod FD. It did run a Nuovo Record RD at one time. The rest of the bits are mostly original.

The first thing to notice is the significant distance the upper jockey pulley sits away from the sprockets on the freewheel. Whether on the large sprocket...



...or on the small sprocket, it sits further away from the freewheel than any other RD I've seen.



Here's a close up showing off a bit more of the CNC work making this unique piece of bicycling history.



While it shifts in the stand (friction of course) adequately, I won't have a chance to road test until Friday. I should also mention that is a 7 speed Sunrace freewheel (13-28). The original Huret shifters can barely pull the RD across all seven sprockets.

In the mean time you can oooooh and aaaaah over @mtnbke 's RD and make crack jokes about my Continental.

cyclotoine

That's a thing of beauty. I would love to score one of those early 1990s American MTB derailleurs for a build I am doing. I missed the thread in the summer, looking forward to hearing your opinion.

pastorbobnlnh 

@cyclotoine it is really neat. After I try it on the Continental I hope to try it on one of my mid '80s MTBs--- if I can find time before the snow flies. Hopefully the white stuff will hold off until after US Thanksgiving. Has it hit the Yukon yet?

poprad

Very cool test, looking forward to the result. I would have to imagine that much drop to the pulley will result in fairly bad shifting.

cudak888 

Bob, how much preload is on the B-tension spring? Are there any adjustments at the upper pivot other than the B-tension bolt? No alternate spring tension locator holes?

I remember having one of these, but can't remember its specifics that well. That, and I can't find a reverse photo of it.



The Campag rear derailer hanger may have something to do with it too. As I recall, the stop sits a bit further forward than most hangers - though I would expect this to work in favor of allowing the parallelogram to tilt forward and upwards - unless somehow the upper pivot spring tension is supposed to be balanced with the pulley cage spring tension.

At either rate, you might want to give it a try with both the Campagnolo hanger and a generic Shimano-spec hanger. Can't hurt.

-Kurt

icepick_trotsky 

Very cool, Bob. I would imagine this would index as well?

pastorbobnlnh 

Kurt, thanks for those pointers. I do have a couple of other hangers, Shimano, Suntour, and Huret. Let me see if any of those shorten the gap. I did adjust the B tension screw, and it did not really change much. I don't think there is an option to change the spring tension.

I took some pictures when I cleaned it and changed out the cracked jockey and pulley wheels for the red aluminum sealed bearing models, but not one from the backside.

pastorbobnlnh 

IIRC, @mtnbke told me it was designed to index with 7-8 speed systems.

Indexing and a 1962 Schwinn Continental don't really go together.

If I try it on my '86 Trek 830 Antelope or my '88 Schwinn High Sierra, it will get a chance to see if it can index on 6 speed freewheels.

The Golden Boy 

I don't know if it's just something that's somehow programmed in, like 'men of a certain age are irresistibly attracted to blocky, CNC'd alloy components.' But damn, those things look cool.

But, damn, that pulley/cog gap looks awful.

It's like you know it's going to shift ****ty with that gap. It's outrageously rare, and if you were to find one it would be outrageously expensive. But you still want to throw it on and put it through the paces. And even though it'll shift ****ty, you won't want to take it off because it looks so cool, and you'll find yourself making excuses to NOT take it off and put something that WORKS on.

I'd do the same thing.


But on another completely unrelated note- I got a Suntour XC 3-pulley derailleur, put some Suntour sealed bearing pulleys on it and threw it on my Trek 720 (more or less as a curiosity- or even a joke). I love it. It shifts at least as well as the Suntour XC Pro that I've had on it. So, the uniqueness of that unit, combined with the relative rarity, it's polished to a mirror shine- and it shifts flawlessly; this derailleur is DOMINATION.

pastorbobnlnh 

@The Golden Boy sometimes we just gotta do what we gotta do!

That's the reason I hung Campagnolo on my Continental--- which led to building up my '71 Schwinn Super Sport with Campagnolo gear.

Or why I transformed my 2003 Cannondale Comfort 600 into an 81 gear hauling monster.

I definitely get why the folks at Joe's decided to try their hand at making their own RD. Does trying make it practical, reasonable, or even a better product? In most cases the answer is a resounding NO! But was it worth doing in the first place? YES!

Thank goodness for all the tinkerers, explorers, and risk takers out there on this Good Earth! We are better people for all their dreams and actions!

qcpmsame 

Jeese, what a nice looking piece of CNC work, thanks for posting it PB. And, only on BF, and in the C&V, could you have a '62 Continental with some rare vintage Campag bits fitted, and that unique Der on the back.

Bill

The Golden Boy 

BTW- did you want to take a turn with the XC 3 Pulley- maybe on one of your 38t climbing bikes?

pastorbobnlnh 

Yes! Or I could loan you a 38T freewheel (I have two at the moment)!

mtnbke

Exactly. Spot on.

That derailleur scares the hell out of me. I couldn't ship it off to PastorBob for a long field test and trials on his bikes fast enough. That derailleur is just going to get me in trouble. I started following a search on eBay for the matching front and something insane has emerged. While front and rear Proshift and Paul derailleurs come and go with frequency, Joe's Derailleurs just seem to essentially not exist. Which is kind of funny that it has become the most scarce, rare and valuable, considering the reviews that Mombat link to the September 1995 Bicycling article where they tested the Joe's, Proshift, and Joe's actually has the Joe's as coming up last in terms of performance. I think the Proshift rec'd 4 chain wheels, the Paul's rec'd 2.5 chain wheels, and the Joe's only gets a measly 2 chain wheels in their review.

[Hint open the images in a new Tab, and then magnify to read reviews]

MOMBAT:Joe's Components* History

Specs from BikePro:
11t minimum cog
32t maximum cog
33t total capacity
66mm between pulleys
compatible with STI indexing
24t front ring difference
208g

I was thinking of letting this derailleur lead me down the rabbit hole of a USA!USA! build. However, that would just be a nightmare. The Technogen Quantum shifters are non-existent. I mean they just don't seem to pop up on eBay ever, and you only hear Bigfoot stories about people seeing them in a $5 bike swap bargain bin box. They aren't valuable, but if I could find the shifters, I'd try it, or at least let someone borrow the derailleur to try to Stone Soup a USA!USA! build. Everything else seems easily sourceable to pull that kind of build off, I think, its just finding the Quantum shifters. Then there is the problem of the front derailleur. I don't even know if Joe's did a front derailluer or not. Then that would mean a mismatch using a Paul's or a Precision front changer. Which just makes my eye twitch.

https://mombat.org/692QuantumShifter.jpg



If someone has a CNC front derailleur they need to ship that to PastorBob for this field trial. The bike might as well shift as poorly as possible, but in all its CNC glory, while he's voluntarily gnashing through the cogs on his beautiful freewheels. That and a proper aluminum vintage USA made Morgul-Bismarck or Klein road frame. I say we turn this project into a Stone Soup affair and drown him in kool vintage bits forcing him to create a CNC-Aluminum frankenbuild out of the mess.

Its not Bob has anything better to do while he's counting falling leaves waiting for his chance to get back on the bike. I mean how many vintage freewheels can one man actually service anyway before losing his mind and running screaming naked into the mountains of NH?

Ed.

I heard, from himself, that it would probably only take 3 Suntour New Winner freewheels to have the desired effect!

rmfnla

A Campy equipped Continental...

pastorbobnlnh 

Now that's an image none of us needed floating about in our heads.

Funny you both mention freewheel service. Last Friday it rained and I serviced 8 freewheels--- all in my own collection. I need to take pictures and sell a few. There is a sweet NOS gold sprocket 5 speed ProCompe that is a real beauty.

I know, I know. Foolish work. But someone had to do it!

Homebrew01

So, did you try it yet ?
You have it outside ready to go, but didn't swing a leg over ?

Choke 

I doubt that it would shift as bad as you think it would. At one time I owned a bike with Gorilla (original name of Precision) Billet derailleurs front and rear. I used X-Ray shifters along with a Sachs 7sp FW and shifting was essentially the same as my other bike which was full XT.

This is the only pic I have, it's a scan of the original so not very good quality. And yes, I absolutely wish I still owned it.

cudak888 

The second photo is pretty clear; doesn't look as if it has an alternate spring locator.

On the other hand, it looks as if there may be two spring locator holes on the pulley cage. Might be worth a look after trying out the derailer. I honestly don't expect it to perform as poorly as everyone suspects - the forward pedaling motion may be enough to help wrap the chain - and load the pulley cage - to provide a smooth shift.

...and then again, I might be completely wrong

-Kurt

mtnbke

Some of the Joe's derailleurs, I think the 2nd generation, has adjustable cage-pivot spring tension with 6 settings. I don't remember looking at this one to see. Like I said, it scared me. Its an evil derailleur that is just a vortex trying to suck me into a build I really really don't want to chase.

https://mombat.org/995Der4.jpg

Bob - did you ever think of putting this wacky derailleur on your wacky folding bike? Pure wackiness! Dogs and Cats sleeping together! Then again a Campy Continental is probably wackier.

mtnbke

Do I see...

a titanium quill Ibis stem?
Time ATAC pedals?
Magura hydraulic brakes?

AND an Anti-Gravity fork?
https://mombat.org/1293AntiGravity.jpg

What a nice build. What else was on it?

On that note, why does everyone love an Ibis but there seems to be no love for the Cinelli mountain bikes of the world? I never understood that.

pastorbobnlnh 

I seriously doubt it would work on the Dahon Speed 7with its forward mounted RD hanger. When I rebuilt it with Shimano 105SC gear, the 105RD would not work at all, so I had no choice but to run the Dahon(Sunrace) RD in friction mode.



Besides, the Dahon is packed and ready for a trip to Miami to visit Kurt.



Road test report at 6:00. Back to Kurt for a preview of tonight's edition of "That's 70s Car!"

Later today. I was ordered not to ride for a month (medical reasons I'll explain in another thread) until I had a follow-up blood test. Had the draw yesterday and get the results this afternoon. Back on this bike after the sermon is done--- as long as a hurricane doesn't blow in off the Atlantic.

Ironic my first ride in a month will be on a '62 Continental with knobby tires and mix and match Italian, French, Asian, and now American gear!

It's been a very long month! I am so ready for a ride!

Choke 

Thanks. You were correct except for the pedals...they were the first gen. Look MTB. It had:

Bullseye hubs
Sun rims (it's a Mt. Trials so the rear is 24")
Ground Control tires
Suntour GG headset
Scott bars
IRD (the original) post
San Marco 'Salsaman' saddle
Hershey Racing seat clamp
Race Face crank and BB
Rohloff Lubmatic (visible on the drive side chainstay)

crank_addict

Now there's something not often heard of! The only piece I ever had by Gorilla was the threaded headset lock collar. Those threaded stock headsets were always loosening on a hard days ride. The Gorilla locker solved it.