daf1009

Time to have some fun...I am nominating an "advisory committee" to help me make decisions on the 1952 Sun Manxman frame/fork/parts I just got from @redcaymatt . I welcome input from all others...as we can have even more fun as a "group" build...it may take us some time to get the parts, etc...but...let's try it out!

So...nominations for the committee...

@gomango @rhm @RobbieTunes @KonAaron Snake @Flog00 @wrk101 @oddjob2 @pastorbobnlnh @Velocivixen @The Golden Boy @redcaymatt @bikemig @noglider @Henry III @crank_addict

In my experience, each person on this list has some unique things to bring to this! So...

Also..as it is my bike now...I do retain FULL veto rights...but...that can be part of the fun...

First...a couple of pictures...these are from Matt's album (hope you don't mind...so we can get started!)...





DECISION #1

Do I finish tearing the frame/fork down...have it stripped and repainted? In other words...do we do a FULL restoration, from the bare steel and up? I think I know the consensus on this one...but...we have to start with the basics...

So...now...advisory committee...go to work! All others that want to participate...feel free to jump in!

Mos6502

Why does it need to be repainted?

bikemig 

Unlike some of the posters here, I don't have a big problem repainting old bikes. I wouldn't repaint this bike though. It's a survivor.

Flog00

I vote a Joe Bell repaint with a build consisting of NOS or like NOS period parts.

Henry III

I like a crusty(in a good way!)bike. Sorry. Probably because I'm too cheap and impatient to buy and find NOS parts especially for this frame.

Chrome Molly

One vote no on the repaint. Break down, rebuild, maybe use a natural wax on the non decal areas, and enjoy.

The Golden Boy 

I'm really digging the look as is. I like the bright and shiny bikes- but the age and the uniqueness of that say "clearcoat me!!!"

What is there for decals on the head tube and seat tube?

KonAaron Snake 

Absolutely not, it has character and charm as is.

Velocivixen

Oh this will be fun! I intentionally didn't read the other comments thus far, because I didn't want to be swayed. So, if it were just us two, say, out for coffee here's what I'd want to know. Is this bike historically important? If so, you might just want to keep the original paint. On the other hand, if it's just a "nothing special" sort of bike, it may not be worth it to paint. Is your goal to have it look brand new? If so then paint. I need more detailed paint photos to decide too.

What is your intended riding with this bike? What was the gearing like originally when new? Three speed? Derailleur? How much you gonna be willing to spend?

So far, my heart wants something red on it. Maybe drop bars with red or "oxblood" colored tape.

Edit: after closer look at the photos, I say don't paint. Clean up, then wax & polish best you can. It's going to look hot!

Sir_Name 

I'd keep the original paint. Freshen it up a touch and wax it. I'd also use cloth tape and let it get good and worn, but we're not there yet.

Oh yeah, congrats. That's a very cool bicycle.

pastorbobnlnh 

My 2 cents is to keep the original finish, and add parts that are in the "spirit" of the period, i.e. anything from the '50s to the early '60s. My reason for this is that it can be so blasted hard to find items for road race bikes from the early '50s. Personally, such a search would drive me bonkers.

But with that said, a full on original matching refinish and re-pop decals would be really sweet to see. However, you would then be really challenged to find NOS or like new period correct gear to hang on this gem.

Quick questions: Any idea if it was built for a Sturmey Archer or other internal gear rear hub, or was it built for a multiple sprocket freewheel and derailleur? What is the rear spacing?

3speedslow

Abstain, though will enjoy what comes of the build.

i am not quite sure how to put my thoughts down on how this thread is set up so will choose not to participate.

It does soundl like an interesting frame to bring back.

clasher

I wouldn't paint a bike like that. I would also be inclined to make it a 3 speed road bike with an S/A dynohub.

rhm

You can repaint it any time. If you repaint it now, you'll drastically reduce your component options, since everything will need to be bright and shiny like the new paint. And finding all the components you need, in bright and shiny condition, is going to be a headache. So I'd suggest you concentrate on assembling a suitable set of parts.

So... what's a suitable set of parts? That depends what you want this bike for. So... what do you want this bike for? How much do you plan to ride it, and what kind of distances? If it's going to be mostly a wall hanger, you can use a lot of components that look good but don't necessarily work particularly well and no one will mind. If you're going to do no-drop group rides, you have to ensure that the bike functions optimally.

If you're planning to ride it quite a bit, you'll probably want a new pair of 700c rims, which are likely to look new and shiny, and this may steer you toward painting the bike. If it's more likely to be displayed as a museum piece, there's no need to paint.

due ruote 

As a casual observer, I'm just going to say I like the way the voting is going.

FNS32

I'm just a newbie but i'd keep the original finish!

lord_athlon

AW / Dynohub Rear, 650b, Bluemels, Front and Rear LED lamps in older housings, GB center pulls, GB levers.

I'd wax what it currently has. That:
A. Allows you to keep it original, its only that way once
B. Opens up 8/10 instead of 10/10 60 year old components.

crank_addict

Oh gosh, this is such a cool survivor. Firstly a kind thanks for asking input. I'm far from longtime experience but have trusted others and where they've immensely helped. I also find this era of bikes interesting and rewarding.

This frameset patina is 'GOLD'. Any flaws are most certainly acceptable and oozes character. You simply can't buy that on a re-paint. Two other reasons, it retains or perhaps increases value but also you can ride it without worry of getting other marks on it. A careful clean and wax would do it. And when you really think about it, there's no aggravating picky process involved or the added expense of re-finishing.

The trick is keeping the balance of components condition matched to the frame condition. Not over polished stuff but respectable.

The Sun's unique bottom bracket struts sets it apart from the rest that I'd probably carry it throughout the build. Being its British, think I'd try to follow that theme in components.

But..... onto the build issues. You could follow the factory specs but likely would be challenging and pricey. I would 'wing it', within means and not necessarily exact era.

If I recall the pics it has a single downtube shift boss. Not sure on how you'll utilize it but would depend on where you plan to ride. Do you have lots of elevation change where you'll need some gear range? Will you want a double or single chainring? A Williams crank would suit it yet would consider something with choice of chainrings, swap options. I also dig cottered cranks. To me they depict vintage. Though a tossup on bottom bracket type I wouldn't rule out a Stronglight 49d type crank with some various rings on hand to experiment with.

Back to the shifter boss. For a single or dual lever shifter? Or perhaps a single lever for the rear and then use a front rod shift derailleur?

Other thought~
There's a seller in the UK with a boxed and complete Trivelox 'B' shift / derailleur set. It was on fleabay, the listing expired but could possibly be acquired. Pre-war older than your frame yet its British cool. Rarely does one ever see them. I believe only two on this forum who have them. RHM and another fellow with his Sun tandem. I don't know what your budget is but the UK seller is very fair priced considering its an entire package - derailleur, rear hub, 3 speed cog, quadrant shifter / top tube clamp mount and cable. It would mate up nicely to that dropout and chainstay.

Then probably use that shift boss for only a front derailleur, that being a plunger action type. They're kind of cool and different. A Huret plunger type would sort of follow the mechanical action of the Trivelox rear. Though French would make for a neat combination.

If going this set-up, you only would need a front hub. A steel high flange Brampton would do just fine. The purist don't give them the highest marks but Rudi steered me in the right direction for one of my builds. I'm also working on another build and again will use Brampton's.

This leads into the wheel build.
I imagine wanting to follow the original rim size but perhaps keep an open mind, especially if planning to ride it. Get it right and this old bike will be a joy to ride.

Take the time, put feelers out for either vintage tubular or straight wall vintage ally 700c clinchers. Surprisingly, I still find them reasonably priced and you'll have a wider choice of tires. The 27" era and finding a tire to match these era bikes are nearly impossible. Of course there's Pasella's but they don't belong on this bike. What I also mean is in the looks and style. Eventually you'll find some interesting tire that hopefully doesn't look out of place. I might sound weird but a vintage tire look and old cable sheathing just seem right.
Spokes- I've been going with new straight gauge stainless for practicality. But my last build I re-purposed vintage galvanized butted spokes. It became far more involved then planned yet I like the end result.

I dig that saddle! Hope its comfy, otherwise set it aside and ride with a copper rivet Brooks in black. And a yes to someone mentioning old bar wrap tape.

Enough from me and its not my coin. Really looking forward to seeing this one done. Have fun!

---one more edit: Might be a splurge but keep an eye out for an early Coloral bottle and cage.

Flog00

How sure of the model year? One reason for my recommendation for a repaint is that I assume the paint on the bike is not original. I don't see black as a color option 1951-53.
Pump placement is also different.
Maybe it's pre 51?

cbutler

Suppose it's October 20, 1972 and the Manxman has been ridden hard and it's original components have worn-out & corroded away.

The frame gets a careful clean, polish and waxing, preserving the patina! We have a few pints then walk to 49 Gray's Inn Road and see what Condor Cycles has to offer;

Headset: Campag GS or Record
Bar & Stem: GB with British Map engraving
Brakes: Mafac Competition or Universal Super 68
Gears: Simplex LJ
Hubs: Maillard Lux Comp Large Flange
Rims: Fiamme Red Label
Tires: Continental Giro
Spokes: shiney
Freewheel: Regina
Cranks: Stronglight 49D
BB: Stronglight
Pedals: Campag Record strada
Clips & straps: Christophe & Binda Extra
Seat Post: Campag Record
Seat: Brooks Team Pro
Waterbottle: handlebar mounted
White cloth tape, white cables.

We ask about shellac for the tape. Our Condor clerk's British reserve breaks and he laughs and laughs. He calls out to the mechanics, they laugh. We sheepishly pay and leave.

cbutler

We have to buy a light to fit on the front fork - that's the dog's bollocks!

Flog00

This catalogue has a very close match.
Little help with nailing down the year. https://threespeedhub.com/wp-content/...g-1950s-UK.pdf

From this list purple (turned blackish over 60 years) and pale blue seems likely.
Also could have been 5 or 10 speeds. Transfers look correct also.
I change my vote for keeping paint

cbutler

Thanks for posting this Flog00, I've saved it because memory. The original specs lead me to a modification; Solid axles with Huret Luxe wingnuts

Big Block

trying to narrow down the date
the threespeedhub catalogue is not specific on date. BUT on p1 it does mention the Olympic Games. These were in 1952 and 1956.
The Manxman had 5 speed Benelux gears and optional 10 speed.
lets work through them
1951 not that as the graphics and panel are different
1952
1953 not that as the graphics and panel are different. Benelux 4 speed gears
1954
1955 not that as the graphics and panel are different
It was offered as a 4 speed Benelux and a front changer on request.

So the undated catalogue Manxman which looks the same has more gears than the 1954 model, and it talks of the Olympics, held in 1952 or 1956. The brochure also mentions the success in the 1952 World championships.
the image tidied up:


the hooded brake levers, the covers on the brake levers, suggest to me that the Olympic Games mentioned is the 1956.

All speculation. Easiest way is to get the serial number from the bottom bracket and ask the Marque Enthusiast at the V-CC (join if you are not already a member)

Keep the paint.

Cassave

That's a very nicely proportioned frame and I think the paint should stay, at least for now.

It's hard to tell, do the catalog pages show the seattube/chainstay struts? I've never seen those except on a frame I built about 1975 for a very strong guy. It was all SP and still too flexy in the bottom bracket.
We added struts just like the OPs frame. He finally ended up with an early Klein, that he said was barely stiff enough!!

I'll take a different tack re the build up. I'd try a (non-destructive) resto-mod build with modern alloy 9 or 10 speed drivetrain and brakeset. The one era can nicely complement and contrast the other.
If you need to build wheels in character with the frame I can recommend the non-anodized H Son TB14 rims. They build easily, have the 23mm width and being bare alloy
will take on a nice ridden look very quickly.

Enjoy and keep us posted whatever your course.