rhm

So, I have too many bikes, including the following two. They are different, but not different enough that I can justify keeping both. So, maybe you can help me decide! What fun...


1974 "The Ace." 24" frame. It now has fenders (silver).



1972 "The Finest." 23" frame. It no longer has fenders, but I could put them back on.



They are mostly similar. The frames are basically the same; same angles, same lugs, same tubing. Neither has its original components, but I have found correct ones, or nearly correct. I don't have the correct headset on either, nor the rims, nor the pedals. Both have minor rust on the frame, more on the fork. Both look pretty good, not perfect.
Neither has any sentimental value.

They have some differences. The factors to consider:
Size. One of them must fit me better than the other, right? But I honestly don't know which, nor how to figure it out.
Gearing. The Ace crank will take a 39t ring, the Finest won't go below 41. Advantage: Ace.
Crank arms: The Finest has 165mm arms, the Ace 170. I prefer the shorter ones. Advantage: Finest.
Extras: Ace has bosses for one water bottle cage, Finest doesn't. Advantage: Ace.
Finest has chromed lugs. Advantage: Finest.
By chance, I have two sets of wheels (correct hubs, not correct rims) for the Finest: a tubular set and a clincher set. The tubular set has a flatland freewheel, the clincher set has a hilly freewheel. Advantage: Finest.

Components: The Ace is (mostly) all first generation Dura Ace, which is pretty nice stuff, and has an especially nice anodized finish. But though perfectly functional, I don't find it magical. The Finest has the typical Fuji mix of Suntour, Sunshine, Dia-Compe, Sugino, etc. Maybe not as flashy, but certainly nice enough. And it works.

What other factors should I consider? How would you suggest I figure out which bike fits me better? I'm guessing I can get more money selling the Ace than the Finest, but that's not a big enough factor to steer me one way or the other.

oddjob2

You know around this Forum, the ORANGE bike is always the winner/keeper.

Nice choices to have!

icepick_trotsky 

I vote Ace, based mostly on components. The Suntour et al mix is nice, but also a dime a dozen. First gen Dura Ace is more rare and has more style points, even if it doesn't shift as well.

dweenk

I like the Finest because it was the bike that I couldn't afford back in 1972 (I think). BTW I have a set of Ukai tubular rims that would be original with the Finest.

ScottRyder 

The orange Ace is as rare as hens teeth, the Finest comes up quite often for sale. Do you hold on to the Ace because it's rare or do you sell it because you'll get better money .... tough call.

Hold on to the one you enjoy the ride the most. And the guys in my Fuji Google group are drooling over the Ace.

Scott

USAZorro

I know you tend to ride larger than is conventionally suggested (I do too), but that Ace looks like it's quite large.

TimmyT 

Well, you have other considerations:
You don't ride enough to justify keeping either.
You have enough storage space that you could keep both.

noglider 

Keep the bike with the better hubs.

bikemig 

I'm partial to the finest; it just looks like a cool old bike with the chrome and the panels.

Don't listen to @TimmyT or you'll end up keeping both or selling both,

bmthom.gis

Have a Fuji BOGO sale!

rhm

That's the heart of what I'm asking. How do I tell which fits better? How do I tell which I enjoy riding the most? The Finest is the smallest frame in my stable. The Ace falls right in my "normal" range. I ride frames that measure 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, and even 63, on the seat tube (c-t), ranging from 55 to 60 on the top tube. Do we assume there's an ideal somewhere in there? If so, how do we find it?

Shimano worshipers will tell me the Dura-Ace have the better bearings. But who listens to Shimano worshipers? The Sunshine hubs are prettier. It's unclear whether these higher end Sunshine hubs have better bearings than the garden variety ones.

Nah, no worries there

fender1

I would keep the one that smells the nicest.....

noglider 

I'm more of a Shimano hater than a Shimano worshipper, but Shimano hubs tend to have better bearings than all other brands at each price point. I don't remember ever seeing a Shimano hub I didn't like.

But now that he posted it, I think @fender1 has chosen the best decision criterion.

noglider 

You've found your idea size range, and any bike in that range can be made to fit you. No size within that range is best if you have already made them fit you, and you have. Size should not be a criterion for keeping. On the other hand, it can be for selling. 58cm probably sells better and might command a higher price.

USAZorro

The best vintage hubs I have ever owned are the Sanshin's that were original to my Finest. They spun forever.

As for your fit question - I'd go with Mr. Miyagi - or a competent chap at a performance-oriented bike shop. For someone who isn't enormously larger than me, you tend to ride bicycles that are inconceivably larger than I would ever consider. I find 55 to be my ideal for go-fast riding, and 56 for more relaxed. I can tolerate 54 (feeling all the while that it isn't optimal), and similarly, can ride the 58 cm (effectively based on 23.5" c-t) Raleigh Professional without feeling like I'm unsafe, but clearly 55-57 is my range. I'm rather surprised that someone who rides as ubiquitously as you is still grappling with the question.

RobbieTunes

Trade 'em for a Feather.

rootboy 

I'd keep the flower bull. Cool.

I like the orange bike. Just because.

rhm

Yes, if you think of "fit" as a certain arrangement of contact points (seat, handlebar, and pedaling circle) in relation to the ground, then yes, any frame in a certain range can be made to fit.

But consider:
1. Do we expect a 23" frame to have the same tubing as a 24" frame? Many builders use a heavier gauge tubing on the larger frames; and the cutoff is somewhere around this point. This probably doesn't apply to these frames; but... anyone know for sure (@ScottRyder)?
2. Assuming the same tubing, and the same rider (and therefore the same contact points), how does the ride of the larger frame compare to that of the smaller frame? Specifically, on the Finest the seat post accounts for 20% of the distance between the bottom bracket spindle and the saddle rails; on the Ace, it's only 17%. Does this affect the ride?
I'm not sure of the details now, but top tube length must have an even greater effect. The Finest has a very short top tube (55 cm) while the Ace has a fairly normal one (59 cm?). In order to set the seat-to-handlebar distance the same on both bikes, the Finest has the seat pushed all the way back on the post, while the Ace has it pushed all the way forward, giving the Ace a more aggressive pedaling position. To give the Finest an equally aggressive pedaling position, I'd need a longer stem; and this would effectively move the headset --the fulcrum-- backward. This will affect the ride; better fore-aft loading of the smaller frame?

Hmm.

I'm a slow learner, what can I say.

noglider 

Now you're basically asking which rides best because of fit. And it doesn't matter why the one that rides best rides best. It just does. You could get into hypotheticals such as would the Finest ride better if you pushed the seat forward and got a longer stem, but that's too complicated if you feel it fits you well already. Just take what you have and decide from there.

Maybe one more ten mile ride with each in close succession will help you decide.

himespau 

I'm like a raccoon and am enthralled with shiny things, therefore chrome does it for me. Other than that, the Ace, though I'd ride it with the saddle pushed a lot further back (but then I ride 24-25", not 23-24").

cyclotoine

I was going to say the finest because the chrome lugs and suggest you swap the components, but looking at the fit I think you should keep the ace.

lostarchitect 

Move the crankset from the Finest to the Ace, then keep the Ace.

ScottRyder 

RHM, if you keep the Ace, would you consider letting us photograph it for an upcoming book about Japanese steel bicycles? It's being shot in NYC and yours looks like it's in much better shape than mine. I may be wrong (most likely) but yours is only the second one I've seen.

Scott

noglider 

@ScottRyder, when will you be here? We could meet for coffee or a quick ride.

SloButWide 

But people will look at you funny if you go around sniffing bicycle seats.


This is probably not a decision that can be made rationally, since it comes down to a matter of taste.
Ride them both alternately until you find something to dislike about one, then immediately sell it before you second guess yourself.