swin1

Hi everyone

I recently acquired this frame locally (Melbourne, Australia). It has what I'm certain are Nervex Professional Lugs and a Campagnolo 1010 rear dropout. There is a small hole just above the derailleur mount so I assume this could be a late 1950s or early 1960s frame. The rear spacing is about 114mm (or 4 1/2 inch). Also, the bottom bracket shell has some serial numbers stamped. Looks like a 6 digit number 915766 on the left side and 111 near the downtube lug. The rear brake and chainstay bridge are curved.

The bottom bracket threading is English. The steel seatpost is very stuck so I have to figure out some more advanced procedures to remove it.

I'm thinking it's British. The long serial number looks like it came out of a factory (it could be Australian but not sure if they would have been produced in large numbers here). I've had a good look at popular British models from that era and no idea, especially with the brake cable stops mounted near the top of the top tube. The gear cable stops look like they designed for Campagnolo Gran sport front mech but I could be wrong.

I would be very keen to restore this thing and any help identifying who made it would be appreciated.

juvela

Dating:

Origin:

Housing stop for front mech also compatible with first generation Campagnolo Record. It employed covered cable. Accepted launch date 1959-60.



No ideas as to specific builder.

Finish may represent a respray. Inspect interior of head tube to see if there is evidence of headplate fastener holes being filled in. If present, their arrangement and distance apart can be a clue to rule in or out specific identity candidates.

Hole in shell for lubrication fitting also supportive of your dating.

114mm rear spacing may be an indication that machine operated with a SA rear hub at one point in its history.

swin1

Thanks for the detailed response juvela. I've looked in the head tube and there are two bumps rather than holes where a head badge might go. There are also four bumps (2 top 2 bottom) closer to the lugs at the front. There is evidence a large sticker or head badge was on their previously with an outline on the front.

The 114mm spacing I though was common in those days with 3 and 4 speed freewheels? This is covered on Sheldon's website.

The seat stays are quite close together so I'm still thinking it's a road specific frame and it was designed for Campy gears?

I'm dealing with removing the seatpost at the moment and will need to investigate fork options.

juvela

Thank you for the additional information.

There are websites and forum threads displaying cycle head emblems. Armed with the information you gained in your head tube inspection you may be able to develop some identity candidates by exploring there.

wrt the 114mm rear spacing - it was commonplace at this time to have 531DB frames which ran planetary gearing with sprints. So narrow tyre clearances do not necessarily rule out planetary. Well you might ask "Yes, but what about the housing stops for derailleur cables?" It was also common at this time for a rider to have a "maid of all work" frameset which may have been employed for competition, for club rides and for touring. So an individual rider may have had three or even four wheelsets to go with one frame.

One guideline on a matching fork would be if the effective blade length is such that top tube comes out parallel to the ground. Such would certainly have been the case at this epoch.

Rest_assured

Mate that looks very similar to a track frame I had a few years ago (apart from the obvious differences between track/road frame) I couldn't get an ID on it either, reckon it was an Australian frame builder custom job.
Have you tried BNA forums?

swin1

Thanks again Juvela - I'll look into badges and take some measurements. I've got a good idea of the fork size I need and may have one made if necessary with a vintage crown / dropouts.

Rest_assured - BNA is my next port of call, probably should've been my first but more active here. Great to hear it might be Australian, what about this frame is similar to what you had? What sort of clearances were on the track frame? The chainstays on this are about 44cm.

juvela

swin1,

wrt 3V & 4V derailleur gear blocks you asked about:

frame is late enough and more than high quality enough that 3V was obsolete for all but some juvenile and town cycles by the time it was built. 4V disappeared/was disappearing for adult sport machines right around the time it was built. it is just barely conceivable it may have been run with a 4V block when new.

you mentioned evidence of an adhesive transfer on the head tube. if there is any adhesive residue remaining you could try dusting it with a fine powder applied with a soft brush like a makeup brush. the powder particles will bind to the adhesive making it easier to view the overall shape.

have seen british frames from this period built with these lugs where the maker used the vagner crown in the third image here. it seems to have been popular with them at this time:

swin1

Thanks again Juvela you're being really helpful with this. I've seen the Vagner crowns, quite nice. There's a Nervex crown on ebay that looks interesting:

Nervex Professional Vintage Front Forks Lug | eBay

This is the fork the frame came with but I just don't think it's original:



Which model Sturmey Archer would have been run in the old days? I thought that while they are reliable they wouldn't be that responsive for racing?

The head tube residue is your basic rectangular shape so could be anything.

juvela

Hello swin1,

Here is a catalogue illustration showing the NERVEX (Francolam) fork crowns of the day:



Your link to the picture of the fork the frame came with is generating an error message.

One minor thing easily checked is whether or not the tubes are pinned where they enter the bottom bracket shell. Once you know whether or not they are pinned it may be a clue to rule rule in or out an identity candidate.

swin1

I've re-inserted the pictures of the fork I have.

Prowler 

Interesting frame. I agree about the fork. On my coal fired tablet, the fork ends look like the "mashed flat and slotted" type which would not be supplied with a same frame that has forged rear dropouts. I'm also wondering if the curved rear brake bridge gives a clue. So many frames had straight bridges that I hope someone will see that bridge and narrow down the builder list.

Big Block

any stamped numbers on the forks?

It is not safe to assume that all the guides, stops and dropouts were there originally. Can you attach a photo of any cable guides on the non drive side.
It may have been built for (or later adapted to) bar end levers.
I have a 1952 EA Boult frame I am working on and the original owner had the rear dropouts changed, and added the RD lever mount, downtube bottle mount, Pennine pump mount and FD cable stops as he upgraded the parts.
Are you going to repaint it? If you are you could gently sand back the paint and see if there are any remainders of previous decals.

allend

Among British frames the derailleur cable stops on your BB were used from '40's and even seen in early '70's although maybe more so on custom builds. A curved brake bridge was common with a lot of British frames up until the 70's. I agree oiler position on top of BB would support a '50's to early '60's frame.

Now a curved chain stay bridge - not so common. Two prominent British builders that come to mind that used such a chain stay bridge were Bill Hurlow (one of his trademarks) and also Bill Gray.

There is presently a c. 1959 Wakefield frame on Hilary Stone's site that has some similar features to yours. It was built with Nervex lugs, has a Curved chain stay bridge and similar TT brake cable stops. Interesting this frame also has a similar reinforced brake bridge hole. Hilary attributed frame to Bill Gray. Hilary Stone Classic Bike Frames pre-1970 p3 I've noticed that frames attributed to Bill Gray often have such treatment with TT cable stops. i.e.: https://www.flickr.com/photos/tovey-moulton/3747608502/in/dateposted/

After takeover of Claud Butler by Holdsworth Bill Gray worked independently for next couple decades in a shop behind Geo W Stratton's bike shop but made frames for branding by shops all over London. Lots more about him on Classic Lightweights under his own name, Doc Green and a Stratton under "readers' bikes". Classic Lightweights esp. Doc Green write up describes a serial number system Gray used that is difficult to relate to your frame number in context of age estimate. Sticking my neck out: '66 ?

Just some thoughts. Still, bit of a mystery! There were certainly lots of builders using Nervex lugs. Mercian used into the 90's. Will be fun to see what turns up.


PS:
Also found this complete original Stratton built by Bill Gray on Hilary Stone's site under "Sold Bikes". He lists as a '68 and he figures was custom built for an older rider as reflected in features. Like your's it has Nervex lugs, semi wrap around seat stays and if look carefully it also has a reinforced hole in rear brake bridge. Likewise, the oiler is on top of BB. Gray seems to have made many variations of TT brake cable guides. No doubt the serial number on frame dates exactly to '68. To view, need to look half way down long list of Hilary's sold bikes: https://www.hilarystone.com/bikesold.html

Perhaps if you emailed Hilary he would give you an opinion on your frame although his site quotes a minimum charge of GBP20.

juvela

G'Day swin 1,

wrt the 114mm spacing -

One caveat we need to keep in mind here prior to a too great speculation on the implications of this dimension is that we do not know the frame's usage history. It is entirely possible, for example, the the dimension is the result of shipping or storage damage. It is clear from the derailleur cable stops brazed to the frame that it was intended for multi-plateau derailleur gearing. For this arrangement at this time the rear spacing as built would have been 120mm and a 5v block would have been employed. Typical spacing for a track or training wheel was 110mm. It is possible cycle may have been run at some point with a d/s training hub for example.

Did not intend to suggest by earlier message that it may have been employed in a competition mode fitted with planetary gearing.

If mine, the first thing I would do would be to perform an alignment check using both the string and straightedge methods. You may discover that only one side of the rear triangle has been pushed in toward the frame's centreline. Illustrated instruction on this alignment check is shown at Sheldon Brown.

fork -

Thank you for the photos. These clearly show the sort of fork one might have found on a child's and/or department store type cycle. Well below the quality of the frame.

identity -

Hope you get some excellent information and assistance with this on your next sojourn at BNA. Rest_assured suggested it may be a domestic ozzie product. One artisanal builder active at this epoch was Wallace. Not asserting this as an identification - just a name to explore.

Best o' luck with your researches!

swin1

Thanks for the continued interest in this frame guys, it's keeping me motivated to keep it and use it. I'll check on the frame alignment but you are convinced it's not just a 4 1/2 inch frame? I would like to think the stops are original. There are not other braze ons on the non drive side apart from the stop for the front derailleur.

Weight weenie question - with the seatpost tube the frame weighs 2.4kg. Take off 100g roughly for the tube and that's 2.3kg. That's in the realm of plain gauge tubing? The frame is 57cm top tube and 59cm c-c seat tube. Would have expected it to be a bit lighter, have not checked seatpost size yet.

I went to a local swap meet yesterday and a few of the older guys there who have more experience with local vintage bikes suggest it could be an Australian frame by Bates, Henry Hill or Valencia. They acknowledge a number of frames were imported and re-badged here. I've now seen a couple Australian examples that do look similar, albeit the the difference with the brake cable stops near the top of the top tube. I see a lot of similarities with the Stratton and the Wakefield and other British frames but the top eyes are different. Those British frames have more flat top eyes, these ones curve in towards the seat lug. I'll harass people on BNA for some input.

I scored a free Regina Gran Sport 5 speed freewheel 14-22t at the swap meet, and there were heaps of period correct vintage parts there up for grabs. I found the whole thing overwhelming and didn't want to just grab stuff to get it all going. I'm tempted to just do Campy gearing and some British hubs, cranks and other bits. Feel free to chime in on the component spec. I have a TDC Italia headset which could be suitable, they came out in the early 1960s.


Thanks again.

allend

Swin1,

Sorry, I initially misinterpreted your point about seat stay top eyes, thus the edit. If you look at Hilary Stone's sold '68 Stratton frame built by Bill Gray, the seat stay eyes indeed "curve in" or "half wrap around". This was also a common feature of some Claud Butlers back in the days when Bill Gray worked there. As I noted earlier Gray made many variations of TT cable stops.



Anyway your frame being a Bill Gray build is just one possibility of many to consider. Perhaps your frame is not as neat as a Bill Gray build. The TT stops and circular guides are not evenly spaced. Also the reinforcing bushing through seat stay bridge looks awkward compared to Gray examples.

Possibly will never know what it is unless you uncover some more info re possible head badge or decals under present paint or someone pipes up with strong evidence for significance of serial number. Another forum to seek out British possibility is Retrobike.

Doug

juvela

the manner in which the seat stay tops are mitred in to the seat lug is a bit unusual in my experience. it may prove an aid to narrowing down an identity for the frame.

perhaps it would be helpful if an additional image of this feature could be posted showing it from another angle. such an image might twig a reader's memory...

noglider 

I notice the lug lining is on the lugs, not immediately next to them. I don't think I've ever seen that.

rhm

Yes.

For what it's worth (not much, I guess), Holdsworth used a similar seat stay treatment on their "531 Special" model in the late 70's: