CliffordK

Ok,

I recently finished my recent new/old build. Ok, a bit of a Frankenbike build. Not quite C&V. Not quite New. And, I do anticipate putting a few miles on the bike (already has about 500 miles in the last 2 weeks).



But, one of the questions that came up were the brakes.

There are a few things that I really like about the Shimano brakes. They now have a true symmetrical dual-pivot for perfectly symmetrical braking. And they are strong, tight, and grippy. On a recent hill ride, I would signal as soon as I could see the turn markings on the road. A couple of the corners were tight, but could be safely maneuvered around. The guy behind me had side-pull brakes and complained about barely making it around a few of the corners.

I also like the quick release at the wheels. The new releases are ratcheting, so one can safely ride the bike with a partial release.

But, the Shimano brakes also look a little clunky.

So, keep Shimano, or hunt down some Campy or some other brand callipers?

Spaghetti Legs 

Performance wise in the more modern era, I give a slight edge to Dura Ace over Record and Chorus but not by a lot - and this is Campy 10 speed vs DA 9 which is the last era I used any Shimano. Aesthetically though, the gray just doesn't do it for me on your bike. I think silver brakes would be best but black would be OK too. That is still a cool bike regardless of what you use!

look171

I love my new Shimano brakes. Stil running 10 spd. Man, do they stop! I have not has Campy for over 25 years. the campy Ihad didn't worl, so I jumped ship and never looked back. I would just keep the what works best for you and not worry about the looks. The guys always make fun of me when my handlebar tape does not match any color on my bike. when I flat, I change out the wheel and can have a deep dish wheel up front and a Mavic Reflex rim laced to an old Shimano hub for months until I feel like working on it again. That drives em' nuts. Oh, my socks do not match my jersey nor my gloves.

noglider 

It really doesn't matter. Really.

eschlwc

c&v?

CliffordK

Absolutely.
C-40 & V

American Euchre

I've only tried the most recent version/s of super record calipers. They're just ok. Adequate, but hardly excellent braking power.

I find ultegra dual pivots to be far more powerful. The bulkiness makes them look impressive and powerful, which they are in their actual performance.

Campy brakes have always lagged behind shimano in braking power.

eschlwc

i sold a guy in town some stuff and met him on my davidson. he saw my bike's single-pivot dura ace calipers and had to have them for a build he's doing. he asked to swap them for a dual-pivot dura ace set he has (plus cash). so i met him again to check out his dual-pivots. they were more bulky and a little cheaper looking than my own, and my single-pivots work as well as any brakeset i've owned. so, no sale. nice guy though.

RobbieTunes

I can barely see the brakes while I'm riding.

SteelIsRealHevy

Why you riding with the front release open?

davester

The brand and geometry (dual-pivot versus single pivot versus center pull) matter hardly at all. The primary issues that affect braking "power" in my experience are pad age/material, rim cleanliness, cable housing condition (i.e. is the lining worn out), cable condition (i.e. smoothness of finish) and caliper condition (e.g. are the pivots lubed and the spring contact points uncorroded?). Geometry makes a difference in feel and hand effort required, but not max braking power unless you have very low hand strength. Geometry can sometimes make a bigger difference if the caliper mechanical advantage is not matched to the lever mechanical advantage.

noglider 

@davester is right! Brand doesn't matter. Excellent brakes have been available for over 50 years, and new brakes can't be made excellenter because the limit is tire traction.

CliffordK

I got it adjusted just a little tight.
And for some reason, it seemed to get worse rather than better with riding.
So, it is half open.

I did quite a few hills, but really pounded on the rear. The front still looks like new.

Steve Whitlatch 

I have had many brake sets come through my door. Modern brakes work better for me. They require less hand strength it seems. I can brake hard from the hoods, stopping fast. All of the old brake set up`s I have used, required a mad dash for the drops for emergency stops.

I do not notice much difference between good Campagnolo and Shimano brakes. Both give me great confidence.

vintagerando

good one

CliffordK

There are several limits on the brakes.

"Pull":Traction:Flipping over Bars:Anyway, so far my Campy/Shimano mix has been good, and very strong. The pads must be kept fairly close to the wheels, and I did have to re-adjust the rear pads at least once due to loss of braking power. As noted above, somehow I got the front too tight, and breaking in hasn't resolved this yet.

I'm not sure if the center pivot/dual pivot is more hype than reality. The new Shimano brakes with a symmetrical dual pivot do work nicely. Looking at ads, it appears as if Campy even mixed dual/and center pivot, maybe to save weight. Was it dual pivot for the front and center for the rear?

I noticed that I never effectively would brake from the hoods with my old Universals. Perhaps a combination of brake positioning, strength, and design. As I moved to aero brakes, the braking from the hoods became more natural. I am happy with the ergonomics of the new Campy 11 levers, but have done well with most other "modern" levers too.

noglider 

@CliffordK, your term "pull" refers to leverage. If there is too much, the lever bottoms out before applying full power. Maybe that's what you meant to say.

Flipping over bars only happens to inexperienced riders. Part of the problem is not knowing how hard to apply and how hard not to apply, but another element is not bracing your weight behind the bike, using your arms. You have to absorb some of the momentum or else the handlebar (or really the front axle) becomes the fulcrum and your body becomes the lever.

Short wheelbase bikes have reduced braking power because a greater fraction of weight is on the front wheel. A skilled rider applies enough braking power to flip the bike over, minus a small amount. This produces maximum braking power. Most of us on this forum have this skill. It comes intuitively after a while.

Front skidding is no better than flipping over, as it usually causes a loss of control.

The Campagnolo approach is to have dual pivot in front and single pivot in rear. I believe the rationale is that it's too easy to skid the rear wheel with a small amount of hand pressure, and dual pivots require less hand pressure than single pivots.

Universal levers had too little leverage, which is why you couldn't brake well from the hoods. When aero levers came out, they increased leverage a bit, which is why they work better. This improvement was coincidental. There is nothing in the cable routing that causes this improvement.

Andy_K 

I believe Campagnolo levers pull less cable (and therefore have more mechanical advantage) than newer (since 7900/6700) Shimano levers. This will result in a different brake feel than the brake is designed for if you mix and match. I think the current generation of Shimano levers also have a variable amount of cable pull.

What this means in terms of mix-and-match is somewhat subjective. Using Campy levers with Shimano calipers should give you more power at the brake for the same amount of hand force. Sometimes that doesn't feel right, but if you like it there shouldn't be a problem. I recently built a bike with 4600-series Tiagra levers and Miche calipers (probably designed for the Campy/old Shimano pull ratio). They felt pretty crappy -- not unsafe crappy, but unresponsive. I thought it was the calipers or the pads. Then I installed 11-speed Athena levers on that bike with the same brakes and they felt great. Finally I replaced the stock pads with Kool Stops and they got even better.

What I'm saying is that brake quality is all a matter of how it feels. Sure, any brake will reach the limits of tire traction if you squeeze it hard enough. What separates one brake from another is the way it responds when you squeeze it, and beyond a certain minimum functionality that's subjective.

If you like the way the Ultegra brakes respond with your Campy levers and don't mind the way they look, then I say stick with them. If you decide the brakes feel too grabby or you have to set the pads too close to the rim or you just don't like the way they look, then switching to Campy calipers will probably fix it.

SJX426 

+1 with @Andy_K

I will add that pads make a huge difference. I would start there with any configuration.

Nice looking bike BTW! I am a Colnago fan but don't know why!

eschlwc

i don't have the strongest hands or anything, but i never brake from the drops. that body position just doesn't give me the control i need to stop.

and if it's an emergency where i need to lockup the rear and skid sideways, i can't do that easily unless sitting up.

noglider 

What sorts of emergencies call for this? Skidding is not the fastest way to stop.

eschlwc

it's happened to me three times where a car has turned left in front of me (with no other out). adrenaline takes over and you skid fishtail-like to a stop.

my previous point is it's a lot easier to brake from the hoods, brake the wind, and put your own weight back on the rear wheel if needed in an emergency. it's much more difficult from the drops.

bradtx

CliffordK, The only question I could pose is "Would the Campagnolo brakes be better, assuming that the pull ratios would better match your levers?" Friends that run Campy groups certainly look to stop just as well with as much control as my Shimano equipped bikes.

Brad

American Euchre

Despite the techno talk, shimano calipers are far more effective. I suspect it's the "skeleton design" of campy calipers which is at fault. It probably leads to excessive flex, and therefore lower braking power.

Steve Whitlatch 

I had to do it once. I was riding very fast on the bike path when someone started to walk their bike out in front of me from behind bushes. Going too fast to stop and too fast to jump off the path into the grass and bushes, I locked the rear wheel and spun the rear wheel around almost touching my knee to the ground, pulled up about a foot and a half from the bike, parallel to the bike, then started pedaling into the grass and around the bike as I had bled off enough speed . The person holding the bike was white as a ghost. I had to check my shorts. Left about a 7 ft skid mark on the path, no skid mark in my shorts. It all happened so fast that I really had no time to think, just instinct.