since6

It's been at least 30 years, and a beloved REI Novara 15 speed touring bike with Tange No. 2 frame, chromed highlighs (top of fork, chain stay drive side) and lovely Suntour shifter/derailleur set (really should have kept that bike), since I last used a down tube friction shifter.

So this morning while waxing and re-assembling the Nishiki Professional I looked again at the delicate cages of the rear derailleur assembly and thought, "I really don't want to shift this wrong and break something."

Thus, my question. As I recall there is a bit of art in the shifting up and down on a non-indexed friction down tube system. So please advice:

1. What changes do you make in pedaling as you shift up/down?

2. Any secrets in bike handling as you shift with one hand and control the bike with the other, besides the obvious don't look down?

3. Anything else?

I figure re-learning this will be a lot like, pun intended, "learning how to ride a bike", e.g., once you know you know. But a refresher from more experienced vintage riders can't hurt.

My Thanks

P.S. And give every mother a hug they deserve it.

randyjawa 

Having never been instructed in how to friction shift, this thread should prove interesting and useful for me. Of course, I really don't ride friction anymore. My main rider, these days, sports Shimano 105 ten speed Brifters. That said...

I would like to hear what riders have to say about this. Who knows, I just might pitch the Brifters:-(

horatio 

Seems like there was a similar thread started a few months ago.

Found this in General Cycling. Link did not copy for some reason.

Is listening an important skill for friction shifting?

Salamandrine 

1. Back off on pedal pressure when you shift either up or down. With practice you can do this within like half a revolution of the pedals. Shift before you get to a steep hill if possible. All of this BTW you should also do with indexed systems, but modern bikes will shift better under load typically.

2. Just use them and you will get used to it. If your bike handling is such that you are worried about your stability with one hand on the bars, you should work on it, ride rollers or something. Grabbing a water bottle is certainly more of a reach and you can do that right?

3. Use the sound to tell you when the jockey wheel is well centered on the cog in the back. Ditto for the front derailleur trim adjustment that you will need to do when shifting the back.

steelbikeguy

As someone who's been doing it for decades, I've probably forgotten what it is that I'm doing. The one thing that comes to mind is that you need to reduce the pressure on the pedals when shifting. i.e. only pedal at half-power or so when making a shift. This applies to indexed shifting too, but isn't as obvious.

Back in the day, when Schwinn stores were trying to educate customers about this fancy new 10 speed stuff, they actually had a tiny bike frame on the countertop, with a whole derailleur system installed. The customer could turn the cranks, move the shift levers and watch the chain move between cogs, etc. This reduced the fear factor, got the customer over the first hurdle, and made it easier to then get the customer and let them practice in the parking lot.

It might be good for you to put the bike in the workstand, turn the cranks, and get a feel for how far the levers have to be moved in order to shift from gear to gear. You'll get a feel for the noises involved, how quiet it is when the chain is in the right place, etc.

I don't think there are any real secrets, but there is surely some sort of learning curve. It may take a little while, but you'll get there.

Steve in Peoria

bikemig 

I've gone back to riding a bike with friction down tube shifters. It has been quite a few years since I've ridden one. The biggest difference is that you have to think ahead before shifting since you can't do it on the fly as easily as with bar ends or brifters. Ideally you lighten up a bit on your pedals before shifting but that's true with modern systems as well. The other big difference is that you have to "feel" the shift to get it right since it is not automatic; just move the shift lever so there is no rubbing which takes a moment's thought as you shift. Here is a completely gratuitous pic of my "new" downtube shifter bike; I've really been enjoying riding it:

steelbikeguy

a follow-up to BikeMig's comment about "thinking ahead".... I would say that it's important to shift down prior to the actual need to do so. i.e. if you are approaching a hill and get onto the slope and are slowing down... you've waited too long to downshift. Since you need to reduce the pressure/force while shifting, you may come to a stop before you complete the downshift.

This will be less true if you are using a modern cassette, chainrings, and chain. These are designed to allow the chain to move more easily than the older equipment.

The "downshift early" issue applies more to the front derailleur than the rear, in my opinion. With the chain under tension, it really doesn't want to get lifted over the chainring teeth, and it is just the derailleur's spring force that is trying to move the chain. I can recall a couple of instances of doing this myself, and having to stop and go back down the hill in order to complete the downshift.

Steve in surprisingly hilly Peoria

jefnvk

I find I tend to do this automatically, when I take my hand off the bars and reach down for the shifters.

I also enjoy being able to just flip the lever and skip a bunch of gear all at the same time.

T-Mar

The secret is to plan ahead. When shifting to lower gears (larger cogs or smaller chainrings) you need to assess the terrain ahead of you and shift before you lose your cadence and bog down with a high load. Most friction derailleur systems have optimum shifting at around 90 rpm and above. Backing off on the pedal pressure during the shift will also help the chain derail more easily. Typically, there is no issue going to higher gears too late as the higher cadence and lower load helps shifting.

A lot of people like to relocate their hand closer to the stem before they make the shift with the other hand, though I never found this to be an issue. Backing off on the pedal pressure helps attentuate any steering issues, which are more likely to occur under heavy pedal pressure.

Many friction derailleurs require a small amount of overshift but this is highly dependent on the derailleur, chain and freewheel combination. Significant improvements can be made to friction shifting by installing a HyperGlide compatible freewheel or cassette and chain.

bikemig 

+ 1 but I tend to run suntour winner freewheels; they shift pretty well but not as well as a modern freewheel and/or cassette. Shimano makes modern freewheels but their selection of sizes is limited; IRD has a good selection of sizes but they are pricey.

aluminummonster

When I first started riding friction systems, I told myself "lever all the way up=top gear; lever all the way down=low gear; and in between, everything else". Just do like you should do with every shifting system: i.e. half-pedal when shifting, anticipate shifts, etc., and the rest really becomes muscle memory. If you hear chattering on the freewheel or cassette, either move the lever or down a bit until the chattering stops, and you're golden. The balance while shifting issue is really something I think you can only learn through practice. The best thing about learning or re-learning a skill on the bike is that it gives you a great excuse to ride more.

since6

Thanks All!

Excellent advice and just what I was hoping for, and yes, you remind me of things. Especially the thinking ahead part for hills and easing off the pedal pressure. The rest will be a matter of feel and experience, though I'm down/up to a dropped water bottle a year (getting it out no problem, missing the hole and letting go....).

What I anticipate is that this is going to be a lot like switching between a record player and a CD/Music Server. By this I mean the experience of listening to music via CD/Music server is immediate and fractured. You can change songs in mid-song, switch entire types of music, classical to heavy metal with a button push, and the temptation to leave the musical now and jump into the musical next, is always there. Whereas, when you put a record on and start it that's pretty much it. You then sit and listen to an entire side of music in the order the musicians wanted you to hear it. You listen more and fiddle less.

Now not taking sides here, because it is super nice to have choices in abundance 10 gears vrs. 7 and three chain rings vrs. two, but I look forward to seeing if the experience shifts, pun intended, to the ride more than the getting there, though I anticipate there will be more of those Goldilock moments when you get into missing gear, e.g., the one below spins too much and the one above lugs down too much, but that's part of the journey too. It's also when I have to tell my still 20 something head to remember to listen to the 60 year old body and stop before you hurt it, as pain is no gain.

Thanks for the very helpful advice.

bikemig lovely bike.

plonz 

Like most things, time in the saddle cures much. Every friction derailleur and freewheel setup I use behaves differently, particularly with the amount of lever movement from gear to gear. When riding only one bike you get used to it very quick. When changing bikes you have to relearn all the subtle nuances. Part of the fun!

Slash5

Biggest problem I have is remembering which shifting system I am currently using. I try to ride a different bike each ride and sometimes I go to shift and end up waving my hand around trying to decide if I've got brifters, downtube shifters or bar ends.

If you have a modern freewheel and chain, there isn't much drama in shifting. I sometimes wonder if index shifting would have been accepted so quickly if the modern chain and tooth profiles had come first. I was out on a 8 speed with Campy friction the other day and shifting was so close to indexed, no hunting or centering.

horatio 

+1

NB: my oldest son, who has only used integrated shifters, was surprised by how easy it was to use friction shifters on the De Rosa (yes, I actually let him ride it!) What bothered him most was taking a hand off the bar to accomplish said shift.

blamester

For me it depends on what gear I am shifting too. To shift down for an easier gear I hook my thumb over the top of the lever with the index finger down at the pivot point and pull it back. A little overshift and back to center. For shifting up harder gear I just knock the end of the shifter forward with my index finger. Generally there is no need to overshift in this case.
Mind you I use a ten speed cassette and chain and I shift as often as I need too.
Up hills is tricky you have too sit down too change so that requires planning.
But if you can see fifty feet ahead you will be o.k.
The gaps in the gearing will probably be the biggest problem once you have mastered the shifting especially on hilly or windy days.

since6

Great thoughts and on the point of muscle memory/habit raised by Slash5 I have to share a funny moment.

On my Nishiki Mixte Olympic 12, which I modified into a 24 by adding the Campagnolo Record 8 speed parts no longer being used after I upgraded my Stevenson Custom to Record 10 speed, I found there were no water bottle braze ons on the seat tube and no way to attach a water bottle cage to the two slender down tubes, but no problem. I got a nice vintage Minora handlebar water bottle bracket, installed it and then added a vintage water bottle cage, problem fixed.

Yes and No.

I now had a water bottle cage, and with the cage sitting low on the handlebars I could easily carry the biggest water bottle so there would be enough water until the next fill up point. BUT, and here's the funny part, for at least two weeks of riding whenever I wanted a drink of water I would take my hand off the bar and REACH DOWN to the down tube to get my water bottle, even as I was looking directly at the water bottle in the middle of my handlebar. Finally, after two weeks and thinking my way into getting a drink I would reach in front of me to pull out my water bottle. OH, and a very nice thing about a handlebar water bottle, we have a lot of fir tree needles, leaf debris, twigs, dust etc. on the trail and wet or dry, and even with fenders, it gets picked up and ends up on the bottle nipple, but this never happens when your water bottle is on your handlebar, absolutely clean.

I think this will be less a problem as with no levers and/or push down levers (two Campagnolo Ergo shifters and one Shimano shifter for the tandem) on the brake hoods there's nothing to attract your attention, but we'll see, as long as I DON"T try to twist the break lever to make a shift things should be fine. Now there's a thought to cause a shudder of dread.

blamester

Re above
I am just back in from a spin and there are loads of hand positions for shifting.
A lot depends on the gear you are in and hence the position of the lever itself.
But anyway I am sure you will figure it out.

Spaghetti Legs 

I find for crisper shifting I move the lever quickly for a quick gear change and then back it slightly to get I'd of the rattle. I think this was replicated in the retrofriction shifters.

jimmuller 

Shifting friction non-indexing...you can tune in the volume of a non-digital radio just by listening, right? It's like that. ("<Some brand of cookies>, you tell how good they are just eatin' 'em." - Yogi Bera, in a commercial for that brand of cookies.)

spinachface

I agree with pretty much all that's been said already in the thread. A lot of it is muscle memory and knowing your bike. The only thing I can think to add would be that I stick my thumb on the downtube of my bike and use my finger to shift for a little bit of added stability. Other than that continuous and steady pace of pedaling always helps and listening for the chatter of a chain or the skipping of a derailleur and adjusting accordingly is great. I love friction shifting for that very reason. If something is acting up, you just adjust by a little bit. Doesn't require any adjusting of the derailleur to make it back home or to your next rest point smoothly and quietly.

trailangel

Who's afraid of taking the hand off the bars... RAISE THEIR HAND!

top506

Me.

Top

Miele Man

Ditto for my Shimano 600 Arabesque groupset. The shifting is as fast and precise as downtube index shifting. I LOVE it!

Cheers

Road Fan

For steering straight while shifting, I like to reduce the steering leverage while one handed. You can do this by first putting the hand you will not shift with on the handlebar top next to the stem, not on the hoods or drops. This will reduce bump steer. Practice this with both hands when you don't need to shift.

Once you have your non-shifting hand in place drop the other one to the shift lever and move the lever smoothly as needed. Listen for the shift to occur and go back to two-handed control.