cs1

As the title suggests lets talk Classic not Vintage bikes. I reread most of the threads concerning the subject. We all agree on one thing. Vintage is based on age. We don't all agree on how old that is. But we do agree on its chronological.

Classic is all over the board. Some of us use age and some of us use styling. IMO the style and construction of a bike determines whether it is a classic or not, age be damned. Let me give you an example. My favorite bike is my 1999 Waterford. I bought it used many years ago for a great price. If it wasn't for the down tube cable stops instead of shifter bosses nobody could tell it was built in 99. It was the last all Reynolds 531 full tube set bikes Waterford made. At least that's what Richard Schwinn said when I called on it. Everything about the bike screams 1980. It has a Reynolds 531 frame, horizontal top tube, lug construction and all the style cues one would expect on a true vintage bike.

Which brings up another point. Most of today's current crop of custom builders are making bikes very close to or identical to what we consider vintage. Obviously the new construction wont allow us to call them vintage. But they really are made exactly like those bikes we all hold near and dear. The lugs are current production. But they are basically copies of Seventies and Eighties lugs. The tubesets are modern but the same diameter as their vintage counterparts. So let us talk what the heck is a Classic?

texaspandj

Interesting. I'm not sure I can Call an object a classic without it being vintage. I would say it's in the classic styling. However I get what you're saying. But when you think about how if you wait a few years or decades, those same objects will become vintage, maybe they ARE classic now.
Currently it has to be vintage to be classic.........I think.

OldsCOOL

Classic must stand the test of time so it is difficult to separate the terms, exclusively. My thoughts are a classic was popular in design and purpose with quality in construction. Everyone has their favorites and each bike had a purpose the era owners enjoyed.

daf1009

As I think about this, I like the idea of splitting Classic and Vintage. As the OP said, vintage is a bit easier, time based, although agreeing on a time is quite hard. As for Classic, the words "classic styling" also resonate and that could define classic. I do not agree that Classic must "withstand the test of time." There are very classic looking bikes being built today...and, honestly, that is what I like...the Classic look. This will be fun to watch...

T-Mar

Both terms can synonymous and used in either a chronological or merit context. Vintage is chronological when used as a noun but describes status when used as an adjective. For instance, a vintage wine does not necessarily have to be old, only one held in high regard.

Classic does not have to imply traditional values or design. Often it is just the opposite. Some products are so outside-the-box that they gain instantaneous appeal and success, and become "instant classics". In the bicycle world, examples would be the original versions of Klein aluminum frame (first oversided, aluminum frame), the Specialized Stumpjumper (first affordable ATB) and Kestrel 2000 (first monocoque carbon fibre frame).

Personally, something has to be very special for me to apply the term classic. It's very hard for me to apply it to the myriads of entry level, steel, luggedfbicycles that were produced during the 1970s. There has to be something to cull them from the herd. Often, at the low level, this factor is popularity. For instance, the Peugeot UO8 was the dominant, entry level, European bicycle of the early half of the early years of the 1970s bicycle boom and deserves the title of classic. However, I would be hard pressed to apply this to most of the other boom era offerings at this level.

The same criteria applies at the high end. There were hundreds of small artisan builders, all producing bicycles of the highest calibre. Yet only a few dozen really stand out. These are the classic builders.

Applying classic to everything of a certain age or style only waters everything down. Classic should only be applied to examples held in the highest esteem. Of course, classic is subjective term, highly influenced by sentiment so, in the end, there will never be a consensus.

bikemig 

The difference between "classic," as the OP defines it which is a custom steel bike, and "classic and vintage" is easy. The former looks lmore or less ike the latter but costs a few thousand dollars more.

The Golden Boy 

I disagree with that.

Vintage describes the particular characteristics of an item, based on it's year; as the word comes from wine (=vin). For example the 2010 vintage Graves Bordeaux is considered an exceptionally good vintage. Looking at the charts, it looks like 2009 was a good year for a lot of wines. However it looks like the 1978 vintage E. Guigal Cote Rotie La Mouline, Rhone, France is considered to be one of the finest wine vintages evAr.

For guitars, bikes and cars and such, the model years will have different characteristics, different specs, and differing availability and rarity that affect the perception of the unit.

If you're getting 1985 Trek 720- you know pretty much what you're getting- a frame built in 1984, generally with the graphics of a 1985 720, with the component specs that came with what's specified in the 1985 catalog.

To me, IMO and all that... high quality, common consumer steel frames with lugs, level top tubes and 'normal' tube sizes are common from the time period before 1994. It's a fuzzy line- but I use the availability of Suntour as the divider- the end of Suntour was a big change for the bike industry. As was indexing- I wouldn't disagree with a line being drawn at the advent of SIS. However, lots of bikes from 1986-1994 strongly resemble bikes from prior to 1985. So the end of lugs and Suntour are the "vintage" divider for me.

However, the concept of "vintage" has generally morphed into the word "old," with a somewhat positive connotation.

There's been a sort of retro thing that associates "older" with "better." In some cases it's true, in some it's not. The 1979-1983 Schwinn World Sports were hi-ten frames with lower end components- then in 1984, it changed to a CrMo frame with hi-ten forks and stays with steadily mid level components- it made for a good bike.

Associating "classic" with "vintage" really goes to associating the things that make an 'old' bike considered 'vintage.' Non-aero brake cables, lugs, 531 frames... things that are indicative of THAT time period.

And the ability to get a bike built to specs that fit that time period speaks to classic styling without being 'vintage.' Rivendell sort of walks that line of being retrogrouch, preciousness and modern economic sensibility- mass produced, classic styling with the modern touches that are necessary for today's consumers... That being said, if I ever get a Rivendell, Heron or some other 'classically styled' bike (like my idea of my "someday" custom)- I'd post the hell out of it here.

Addendum:

As things get older, they get more rare- they get broken, damaged, stolen, lost, thrown out... and in the case of collectibles- they get snapped up by collectors and enthusiasts. They effectively become unobtanium. So, what seems to always happen is that the 'next best thing' becomes desirable- simply from proximity to the desirable item.

Although a lot of bike acquisitions are done by stumbling across them rather than focused searches- I guess my whole point is to try to understand why something is desirable in the first place. IMO it's stupid to desire or seek out something simply because it's "old" or "vintage." Knowing specifically what makes a bike of a certain vintage more cool or desirable than other bikes is more important (to me) than just having a '"vintage" bike' that's awesome because it's "vintage."

imi

I would suggest that a model can be classic even if it's still in production, but a vintage example must be of a certain age... or from a classic era!!
It's complicated!

An example from the world of guitars: a Gibson Les Paul is a classic guitar model still made today, but a '59 Les Paul would be a vintage guitar... from a classic era

Lazyass

In the car world vintage would be at least 20 years old but not more than 40. Then you have classic. And then you have antique. Classic is an overlap between vintage and antique.

3speedslow

+1' this IMO

imi

A vintage wine is one where the grapes are grown and the wine bottled in a single specific year...

USAZorro

In the absence of a will to enforce the definitions, the distinctions are pretty meaningless (here on BikeForums at least). If you think either/both apply, post about it and someone will think it's cool.

Spaghetti Legs 

I've posted my 1996 Colnago C40 in other threads as a classic IMO without being vintage. I think some historical significance or importance plays into that designation. In this case a fairly early example of a lugged carbon frame, successful racing pedigree, long follow on production run.

Vintage Raleigh

It's too hard. Bikes toted as vintage on gumtree or eBay are generally old rattlers. What does classic mean these days? Definitions are reinterpreted over time, for me it's personal and would be an Italian English or French racing bike, an 3 speed English tourer an Italian commuter of a certain period. The reason is emotional. I could justify it by saying it had historical significance but sometimes I just see a bike and go wow what a classic.

AlexCyclistRoch

Today, and road bike with a flat top tube is considered "classic".

tarwheel 

It's a worthwhile distinction but I'm sure there would be much disagreement about definitions. However, I would agree that vintage generally means old, but what is the cutoff date? My oldest bike is a 1982 Specialized Sequoia -- it qualifies as vintage in my stable but it is probably modern for many C&Vers. Most of my bikes are classics to me because they have lugged steel frames with level or nearly level top tubes. However, can a bike with a threadless stem qualify as a classic? How about a TIG-welded frame?

The Golden Boy 

This is an exceptionally laid back, appreciative and accepting group. While there's always someone that'll tell someone they can't play along- for the most part, the only reason there's not a lot of newer bikes posted is not because they get run out- but that people don't know about them and have nothing to say other than "nice bike."

Velocivixen

I think of "Classic" as representing the epitome of style of a given time period. Representing the pinnacle of the era. Not the lightest, nor the fastest, or most expensive, but representing the best representative of style and function and beauty of the time.

cs1

Agreed, there are several custom builders making very classic looking bikes today. They are in no way vintage.

cs1

How did I miss that definition? It is perfect. Right now it seems like 99% of all bikes here are steel. That is going to change in the very near future as aluminum and carbon bikes start coming of age. Eventually bikes like Trek OCLV series, especially the USPS bikes, are going to fit that definition.

Velocivixen

@cs1 - Oh gawd. The bike you mentioned may fit what "my" definition is, but eek. Oh well...I gave it a shot.

MeadMan2

I agree with Velocivixen. If you use automobiles as an example, the 1930's are considered the classic era. A V12 Packard phaeton is no doubt a classic but would you consider a Chevrolet from the period a classic? However, to complicate things, age is also included in the definition.

KonAaron Snake 

I know it when I see it.

To me, classic means exemplifying the best about something. They're the bikes we drool over...the ones we'd buy if money weren't an object. Classic means the bikes that the other brands try to emulate.

rootboy 

I like this. Bravo, VV.

adjective

1.judged over a period of time to be of the highest quality and outstanding of its kind.

crank_addict

In my view, classic in an object could mean a few things. All subjective but would have a strong aesthetic or superlative style and appeal. So that possibly would qualify a freshly made item as classic.

I sort of categorize vintage as something aged or belongs to a prior era. Also vintage does not necessarily have to be classic.