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Old 07-18-16, 11:57 AM   #1
cohny
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Slant parallelogram campy RD for use with fricton shifters

I picked up a Bianchi Nuovo Alloro yesterday in celeste and I'm super stoked on it , however, the Nuovo Record RD does not shift very well. I've read that the 8 speed stuff campy made in the late 80s early 90s is not compatible with newer components and as such is not highly desired. This shouldn't be an issue with friction shifters though and I was wondering if anyone could recommend a specific model I should look for that isn't too pricey. I would like to keep this bike all Italian if possible.

TIA!
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Old 07-18-16, 12:30 PM   #2
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Try a modern freewheel and chain. They shift so well just about anything will work with them. Hard to trim cause they don't make any noise.
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Old 07-18-16, 12:42 PM   #3
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<..snip..> however, the Nuovo Record RD does not shift very well. <..snip..>

TIA!
that's sort of the whole point... the fun is getting to learn what the old stuff is like and the skills required to make it work properly.

It may depend on what the rest of the system is like, though. I use Nuovo and Super Record derailleurs with 13-24 six speed SunTour freewheels and modern Sachs 8 speed bushingless chains. Perhaps I have low standards, but it seems to shift fine.

I do still have one bike set up with Nuovo Record, a 5 speed 13-24 SunTour freewheel, and a very vintage Reynolds chain with bushings, and it shifts rather slowly (which is very authentic).

My instinct is to encourage you to keep using the Nuovo Record derailleur and see how long it takes you to adapt to its quirks. I'm also wondering if there isn't something else about your setup that is causing an actual problem. Got any photos of the bike, derailleur, etc?


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Old 07-18-16, 12:49 PM   #4
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I'll take some pictures tonight. I'm pretty sure the chain and freewheel should be replaced with something modern that isn't straight toothed at the very least but I'd still like to get something better if possible
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Old 07-18-16, 09:47 PM   #5
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Here are the pictures:







They may not be helpful. I'm not really sure how pictures could be of use or what I should take a picture of. I do notice that the freewheel is a straight tooth design and that the chain doesn't have the extensions between each link to catch the chain. I'm going to order a new chain and freewheel.

However, I'm sure that it would be even better with something modern. Would something like this work?
Campagnolo Rear Derailleur C Record Era 8 or 9 Speed | eBay

I know this may not be proper but I want the bike to function as well as possible.
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Old 07-18-16, 10:44 PM   #6
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Try a new chain and Freewheel first. $25 for both tops.
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Old 07-19-16, 06:39 AM   #7
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I think you're on the right track. I've thought about doing the same thing. A chain and freewheel may improve the way the NR shifts, but they won't make it shift well. A slant parallelogram RD will certainly shift better. I don't have a particular model to suggest. There are many to choose from.

Come to think of it, the one I was looking for but never found was an early Chorus with the A/B settings for the cage drop.

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Old 07-19-16, 07:03 AM   #8
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Beautiful bike. I also recommend a new, modern chain and a Shimano or Suntour freewheel. If that doesn't satisfy you, purchase a 1980ish Super Record rear derailleur. It won't match the performance of the Japanese alternatives, but it will empty your wallet.
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Old 07-19-16, 07:16 AM   #9
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I've never used a NR RD but have 2 bikes with Super Record. I also would suggest starting with just replacing the chain. I use KMC z72 and have been happy with the shifting. One bike has a Regina CX freewheel (6s), the other a Dura Ace (7s). I don't have vast experience with different chains on vintage bikes, the KMC was a good price, first one I ever tried, worked fine, so I've stuck with it.
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Old 07-19-16, 07:41 AM   #10
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I can tell you after '88 Campy RD requires longer cable pull. These are actually Great derailleurs if you match with the large drum friction shifters
Sorry I couldn't find a photo of the friction shifters except the graphite finish

On my Moser, I have the 2nd gen Chorus RD with the Record friction shifters from about the same time.

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Old 07-19-16, 08:04 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cohny View Post
Here are the pictures:

<... photos deleted by Steve...>

They may not be helpful. I'm not really sure how pictures could be of use or what I should take a picture of. I do notice that the freewheel is a straight tooth design and that the chain doesn't have the extensions between each link to catch the chain. I'm going to order a new chain and freewheel.

the details of the pictures do tell me a few things....

1. the chain is not a chain with bushings (and the associated pins that stick relatively far out of the links), which would make the shifting worse than with a bushingless chain.

2. the chain length looks appropriate.

3. the fore/aft position of the rear axle looks fine. With the short dropouts, there's not a lot of options. Some bikes have much longer dropouts.

4. the freewheel size is reasonable... a 13-24 or so?

Your description of the problem is: "the Nuovo Record RD does not shift very well". Can you elaborate on this? Is the shifting stiff? Does the chain not get picked up by the freewheel cogs and just "skate" along the top of the teeth? Does it make a lot of noise?

Or, by comparison, what friction shifting do you have experience with, and what derailleur/freewheel/chain combinations have shifted will for you in the past, and how did it compare to the Bianchi?

On a bike that was just purchased and may have been neglected for some time, you may just want to see if the derailleur cable is gunked up under the BB or in the cable housing, and if the shift lever moves smoothly and easily.


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However, I'm sure that it would be even better with something modern. Would something like this work?
Campagnolo Rear Derailleur C Record Era 8 or 9 Speed | eBay

I know this may not be proper but I want the bike to function as well as possible.
It sounds like you want to change to something modern-ish regardless. I'd just encourage you to play with the NR derailleur for a while and see if it grows on you. There is always time to put on a newer derailleur.

The first steps should be:
1. a good inspection,
2. clean stuff up and get everything running smoothly and not sticking or binding, with attention to the cable, housing and lever(s).
3. replace the chain and possibly the freewheel. The freewheel may be worn enough that a new chain will skip on the worn teeth.
4. browse e-bay or forums for a potential derailleur.

good luck!

Steve in Peoria
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Old 07-19-16, 08:14 AM   #12
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90% of shifting quality is in the chain, the adjustment/setup quality, and the freewheel. IMO going to a 'modern' derailleur would be a 10% improvement. The old Campy NR shift well if properly set up. You are barking up the wrong tree.

Start by replacing the chain, lubing the cables, checking the derailleur ear alignment, and the adjustment. That should yield a large improvement. At that point if you want more improvement you could put on a modern twist tooth freewheel, which will shift better under load.

If you do, keep in mind that the bike probably has Italian thread hubs now. (can't remember for this model) You can cram on BSC threaded freewheels, but be sure to use plenty of grease/anti seize, and you won't be able to go back to italian.

Nuovo Record and Super Record derailleurs are exactly the same BTW. The only difference is the titanium bolts which save a few grams, and then anodizing on Super record.
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Old 07-19-16, 08:38 AM   #13
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NR and SR require that you over shift and then readjust because the jockey wheel is too far from the cogs. Some people say that they are used to it and it becomes automatic. I never got used to it and prefer derailleurs that shift properly, with no readjustment of the shifter necessary.
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Old 07-19-16, 09:40 AM   #14
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The derailleur could always be replaced with a modern IE Suntour slant parallelogram type, but it should be the last step.

I spent many years repairing bicycles all day, and 19 of 20 times someone bought a bike in for a "derailleur doesn't work" issue, the problem was elsewhere.

I'm not arguing that modern derailleurs have not improved. However, old cyclone and superbe derailleurs also required a slight overshift. Improvements in shifting are the result of many factors together, not just the derailleur. Also contributing are: better chains, better cogs, floating pulley wheels, slicker guides, stiffer cable housing.
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Old 07-19-16, 09:42 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
NR and SR require that you over shift and then readjust because the jockey wheel is too far from the cogs. Some people say that they are used to it and it becomes automatic. I never got used to it and prefer derailleurs that shift properly, with no readjustment of the shifter necessary.
This is why Campag. rushed a slant parallelogram to market as soon as the SunTour patent expired.

I have slant planograph SunTours on the mountain bike (wide-range XC) and the Peugeot (tighter-range Cyclone II), and they do outperform the my various Campags. (1960 Gran Sport, 1980 980, 1980 Nuovo Record, like yours). The Capo Modell Campagnolo's aftermaket 980 isn't too bad with my 13-23 Regina freewheel, but I did angle the body forward, such that it would not take anything much larger in back.
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Old 07-19-16, 09:48 AM   #16
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I picked up a Bianchi Nuovo Alloro yesterday in celeste and I'm super stoked on it ,
... as you should be. (See my signature.)

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I've read that the 8 speed stuff campy made in the late 80s early 90s is not compatible with newer components and as such is not highly desired.
Yours looks like an early-mid 1980s model to me. (I can't quite make out the year in the "PAT8_" on top of the derailleur. With a single water bottle mount and those BIANCHI graphics, I think you have about a 1983 frameset.)
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Old 07-19-16, 09:59 AM   #17
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The brake cable housing is at least several inches too long, btw. Shorten them and the brakes will work better.

Leads me to think the bike was worked on by someone less than pro at some point. The whole bike should probably be gone over and given a proper adjustment and setup.
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Old 07-19-16, 10:14 AM   #18
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the details of the pictures do tell me a few things....

1. the chain is not a chain with bushings (and the associated pins that stick relatively far out of the links), which would make the shifting worse than with a bushingless chain.

2. the chain length looks appropriate.

3. the fore/aft position of the rear axle looks fine. With the short dropouts, there's not a lot of options. Some bikes have much longer dropouts.

4. the freewheel size is reasonable... a 13-24 or so?

Your description of the problem is: "the Nuovo Record RD does not shift very well". Can you elaborate on this? Is the shifting stiff? Does the chain not get picked up by the freewheel cogs and just "skate" along the top of the teeth? Does it make a lot of noise?

Or, by comparison, what friction shifting do you have experience with, and what derailleur/freewheel/chain combinations have shifted will for you in the past, and how did it compare to the Bianchi?

On a bike that was just purchased and may have been neglected for some time, you may just want to see if the derailleur cable is gunked up under the BB or in the cable housing, and if the shift lever moves smoothly and easily.


Steve in Peoria
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
NR and SR require that you over shift and then readjust because the jockey wheel is too far from the cogs. Some people say that they are used to it and it becomes automatic. I never got used to it and prefer derailleurs that shift properly, with no readjustment of the shifter necessary.
The problem is exactly as Grand Bois describes. I have to practically shift two gears and then back one just to get the bike to shift and it usually skates for a second as I back off. I have to stop applying real force to the pedal for over two seconds to get it in gear. It is less than effective. I ordered a sunrace 13-25T 7 speed freewheel and a new chain so I will see how that works out.

The other experience I have is with a Huret RD on a Raleigh Super Course MkII that is also not a slant design. It's paired with a hyperglide freewheel and chain and it shifts a lot better than what's on this Bianchi now, but it still isn't totally smooth. I don't have to go farther than necessary to change gears though which is nice. I definitely have to go over the bike completely to clean and lubricate all of the parts.
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Old 07-19-16, 10:23 AM   #19
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On my Moser, I have the first Chorus RD with the Record friction shifters from the same year.
How do you like that setup? Are those friction shifters the same as the ones I have now or do they have a larger drum?
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Old 07-19-16, 10:27 AM   #20
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The brake cable housing is at least several inches too long, btw. Shorten them and the brakes will work better.

Leads me to think the bike was worked on by someone less than pro at some point. The whole bike should probably be gone over and given a proper adjustment and setup.
I totally agree. I am going to order new cable housing and bar tap in grey to match the seat, and replace and lubricate all of the cables while I'm at it. I really got into the maintenance. I already almost have a full set of tools. I only need a stand and freewheel tools and I'll have everything. I'm probably going to shorten that blue housing after work today so it's better in the meantime. It should only take a few minutes.
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Old 07-19-16, 10:55 AM   #21
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How do you like that setup? Are those friction shifters the same as the ones I have now or do they have a larger drum?
been riding friction 40 years, and this is the best friction setup, 8-sp, I have ever used.
The large drum friction levers are hard to find, though. You can also use Synchro levers, but the friction levers look much better.
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Old 07-19-16, 11:16 AM   #22
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Wow that bike is really awesome. I'll have to keep an eye out for those levers, thanks!
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Old 07-19-16, 11:19 AM   #23
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thanks, it's a sweet bike, and I'm always amazed how it lunges up grades in tall gears
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Old 07-19-16, 11:30 AM   #24
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thanks, it's a sweet bike, and I'm always amazed how it lunges up grades in tall gears
What are those levers commonly called? I'm not sure how to search for them.
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Old 07-19-16, 11:32 AM   #25
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C-record or Chorus friction shifters - there are some on ebay now - not cheap, but not crazy
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