Ed.

Over, over, under


or




Under, under, over


Which is best?

bulldog1935

my over over under on Zeus hubs and Rigida 1320 rims lasted 30 years and that many thousand miles - in fact, they outlasted the hubs
For some reason, people on CR dis these rims - I'm 6'3" and 200 lbs.

FBinNY 

Old timers and most Europeans lace "pulling" spokes elbow out (over over, under).

However most Americans, do the opposite, probably because Jobst Brandt advocated that in "the Bicycle Wheel".

I still stick with the old world way because I prefer to believe that elbow out spokes are slightly more fatigue resistant and, anyway, that's what I've done for almost 50 years. But I don't make a big deal of it and consider any difference (if there is any) marginal.

What does matter to a certain degree is that the wheel is mirrored, so all pulling spokes are either elbow out or elbow in.

Salamandrine 

Neither for me. I always build symmetrical, pulling spokes inside. We may have different terms on the west coast, I dunno.

repechage

Front wheel with rim brake, it does not matter, but I usually match what I do for the rear wheel:

Rear wheel. I have the "pulling" spoke, spoke that gets the load under acceleration- spoke elbow to the inside of the hub, between the flanges. Both sides of hub. I did not start out building wheels that way, but found that for me they stayed truer longer for whatever reason. Why fight what worked so well?

On wheels I buy on bikes that are not built that way I don't give it another thought.

I will mention that the wheel with washers at the spoke elbow bothers me more. This is the reason I stopped buying DT spokes.The distance got larger to the spoke head from the bend, probably due to modern, thicker flanged hubs…
Fine for those but not for vintage. Too bad as I like their nipples.

Sapim or Wheelsmith in that order for me now, when I don't use NOS spokes.

repechage

Have to agree that is a rim I did not look forward to building way back.

gugie 

After building hundreds of wheels with pulling spokes "inside", and having seen hundreds of wheels built the opposite way, my jury is in:

It just doesn't matter. Grease or not grease a square taper bottom bracket, same thing.

Just one person's opinion.

catgita

In the Jobst Brandt camp, more because if you don't follow a system, you wind up with irregular wheels.

gugie 

I can think of a half dozen things that are more important than which side of the flange pulling spokes go on.

Salamandrine 

I came to the same conclusion WRT pulling spokes inside or outside. I guess the idea was that if you lost a pulling spoke by dropping a chain inside your cluster, it would screw up your wheel more and give you less chance of getting home with a broken spoke. In practice if there is a difference it's infinitesimal. I just do it out habit I suppose.

RE: grease or grease not on square taper bottom brackets -- sometimes it matters. I use very light grease plus loctite on the bolts these days. If it creaks I'll go for no grease on the tapers. Depends. If there's no cricket creak then it just doesn't matter. Jobst was an extremely cool dude but he was never a mechanic. Your perspective on these isssues changes when you are fixing them for a living rather than theorizing about them.

DMC707

Bulldog! Good to see ya ! - I'm Streetstar from the leverguns forum -- you gave me excellent advice on bbq, German food and fly fishing around Boerne !

Keep enjoying yourself my friend I hang out here because I am engaged in restoring a number of early 90's Italian lightweights -- good stuff

bulldog1935

good to see you - the politics did me in on that board - I bet they're worse now.
Good to see you and looking forward to seeing your bikes.

AlexCyclistRoch

Here's the logic:

When you overshoot your largest cog, it's usually when you are climbing hard. When this happens, the chain suddenly is going much faster than the wheel is, and ready to catch the first thing it his, namely, the outside spoke. If the LEADING/slack spokes are outside, it will probably want to ride away from the hub. If the TRAILING/taut spokes are outside, it will ride it's way down to the space between the cassette and the hub, and jam.

top506

Whatever Sheldon said.

Top

John E

This thread somehow reminded me of the Airplane II movie: "Dunn and I were under Oveur, even though I was under Dunn."

The original wheelset on my Bianchi came laced Euro-style, which is also how I have generally built my own wheels. However, if a set of hubs already has hole elongations/distortions, I prefer to maintain the original lacing pattern.

vtchuck

+1 I use his online instructions to lace my wheels. No complaints or problems so far.

Stadjer

Probably the Americans are right, I've never laced a wheel myself, but there's a factory here who are not into road bikes but are all about making bespoke handbuild indestructable utility and commuting bikes, and they claim that pulling spokes should be head facing head (which means elbow in I guess) and under, under, over, and with a curve that has a perfect fit to the hub, no play at all. They claim scientific research to show 90% less spoke failure. And then they use extra thick spokes and a thick heavy rim for the other 10%.

Maybe it works different for lighter bikes, but probably not.

FBinNY 

The fact that you've never laced a wheel is showing. I don't know for sure, but to me, head facing head would imply that the heads are in (facing each other) and therefore the elbows are out. So if you think they're right, then you think the Americans are wrong.

No offense intended, but you might avoid self-contradictory posts if you didn't post where you lack knowledge of the subject.

realsteel

I have a ladies' Claud Butler from 1950 and it's an unmolested 'time-machine', i.e. unchanged for nearly 70 years. It also has very high-end equipment and must have been built for a rather well-to-do young lady in a good bike shop. The front wheel has a Harden hub and the rear has an Sturmey-Archer AM. Here it is:



As you can see, it follows the over-over-under convention but it's also asymmetric in that the trailing spokes on the non-drive side are on the inside. Perhaps there is a US/European difference, as mentioned above.

We're not doing this very scientifically though: there seem to be arguments both ways. Has anyone published a study on this and checked strain, vibration or longevity of the wheel?

FBinNY 

You've raised 2 points.

1- non-mirrored wheels like his one are common, even dominant, among production wheels. In production, all the spokes are loaded into the hub at one station and the wheel laced to the rim at another. The lacers work one flange at a time, picking up crossed pairs and bringing them to the rim and attaching the nipples loosely. This method eliminates the effort of dragging spokes under others to weaver them over/under, and the risk of scratching the rim in the process. It's much faster than the method most amateur builders use.

However, building a mirrored wheel is problematic. Weaving the spokes calls for a bit of unconscious finger manipulation and it's difficult to maintain speed if you have do this in the reverse direction, or flip the wheel half way through. It's faster, to lace the lower flange first, then lace the upper the same way.

2- the older (pulling elbows out) method represents a century of learned experience going back to the days when experience based rules of thumb were SOP for many engineering applications. However, fairly recently Mavic conducted some tests to determine which was most durable, and confirmed that the old guys had it right. (but it's a small difference).

-------------

The rational that Jobst Brandt had for building pulling elbows in had nothing to do with strength or durability. If the last cross is with the pulling spoke to the outside, the change in tension balance in the crossed pair would pull the cross point in toward the center of the wheel. This could be useful when climbing in low gear where the load is highest while the derailleur is closest to the spokes.

It's a valid consideration, but IMO the deflection is very small, and the derailleur not close enough for it to make a difference. Most, if not all cases of RD in spokes happen during the shift, and not when the torque loads are highest anyway.

top506

I think you just summoned Jim Muller

jimmuller 

Good point, not commonly expressed either. Head-in/elbow-out for the trailing spokes also means when the chain mangles the spoke it won't happen on a spoke currently under significant tension. But neither of those factors matters if the RD is adjusted carefully. In fact, that serious an overshift could also cause the cage to contact the spokes, which could bring about an even worse disaster.

Which brings up the other line of reasoning I've heard: For the trailing spokes, increased tension from acceleration pulls the outermost crossover point in the direction of the elbow. So head-in/elbow-out would shift the spokes slightly toward the RD cage. IIRC this was one of JB's comments.

So take your pick, which failure mode would you prefer? Again, it matters only if the RD adjustment is suspect. I've experienced both problems at least once but I'm sure they were my own fault.

I've strung wheels both ways, can't say I've seen much difference.

I've even seen wheels strung differently on the the left and right flanges, but I can't remember if it was front or rear. It seems like not a good idea on the rear because acceleration could shift the entire rim laterally.

Addendum: And if I'd seen Top's summons (thanks, Top!) before posting my reply I would have acknowledge it.

gugie 

Yeah, I was taught pulling spokes inside. The funny thing is that the same logic is being applied by some to put the pulling spokes OUTSIDE when you have disc brakes, since they now have theoretically more force applied to them in heavy braking situations.

Next time I have had creaks in my cranks, I'll change up the grease/no grease as you stated.

Stadjer

What's your point here? Shouldn't I have shared this information with you because I have never laced a wheel myself ? Or should I not have said that I've never laced a wheel myself? Or shouldn't I have used their words, 'head facing head', so an experienced wheel lacer could correct me if I got it wrong? Should I have claimed they were right because I can judge that with my superior knowledge of the science of wheel lacing?

I thought I made it perfectly clear I wasn't speaking from my own experience and knowledge. I think it's an interesting subject and I'm not going to lace a wheel myself until I know exactly what I'm doing, otherwise I might as well have it done.

gugie 

I think we're forgetting the most important thing when wheel building. This is critical. Remember it.

When lacing your wheels, make sure that when you look down the valve hole you can see the hub logo. I was taught that you should see the Campagnolo world, back when that was the only real choice.

Hey, because, you know, St. Sheldon...