View Poll Results: Which is best?
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll
No I'm not going to let this die quietly!
#51
Calamari Marionette Ph.D
#52
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,724
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5790 Post(s)
Liked 2,581 Times
in
1,431 Posts
Either a time/cost saving measure on a production wheel. Or an intentional hand built wheel for track where rigidity trumps resilience/longevity.
I don't weave spokes when building for small tracks or sprinters.
There are no rules in wheelbuilding, only considerations.
I don't weave spokes when building for small tracks or sprinters.
There are no rules in wheelbuilding, only considerations.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#53
Calamari Marionette Ph.D
This part confuses me. I think I understand why it would be more rigid. But wouldn't more rigid equal less fatigue from flexing, and therefore longer lasting? Splain me please.
#54
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,724
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5790 Post(s)
Liked 2,581 Times
in
1,431 Posts
It's a TRACK wheel, so only performance on the track matters.
A I said -- no rules, just considerations.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#55
~>~
I learned wheel building from a Master of tied & soldered track wheel building in pre-WWII racing.
You either know what you are doing or Not from actual experience.
We built light wheels for road Nationals on the "American" pattern that did just fine "back when" for our riders w/ the "new" mid-70's 6 cog tech 32hole wheels.
Not a huge surprise for us, with the touch that we were taught by "Pop" who had a signed pic of Jimmy Walthour Jr. by his workstation.
edit: Glancing into the garage two machines are still on the mid-80's front wheel built for them, and if a FG RR wheel wasn't required for one and a 10 cog cassette for the other they would still be rocking the same '80's build w/ zero worries.
Craftsmanship: Period, End.
-Bandera
Last edited by Bandera; 07-20-16 at 06:20 PM.
#56
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Hopkinton, MA
Posts: 1,538
Bikes: 1938 Raleigh Record Ace (2), 1938 Schwinn Paramount, 1961 Torpado, 1964? Frejus, 1980 Raleigh 753 Team Pro, Moulton, other stuff...
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times
in
11 Posts
#57
Calamari Marionette Ph.D
Unless I am reading your post wrong, you strike me as agitated.
I wasn't questioning your knowledge, I was politely asking a question. A serious one. Which you didn't answer.
My understanding is that the cause of spoke breakage is due to repeated flexing cycles. I also wasn't sure why the OOOO would be more rigid. If the wheel is more rigid wouldn't that make for a longer life? I was hoping to tap your knowledge and learn something.
#58
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,724
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5790 Post(s)
Liked 2,581 Times
in
1,431 Posts
Unless I am reading your post wrong, you strike me as agitated.
I wasn't questioning your knowledge, I was politely asking a question. A serious one. Which you didn't answer.
My understanding is that the cause of spoke breakage is due to repeated flexing cycles. I also wasn't sure why the OOOO would be more rigid. If the wheel is more rigid wouldn't that make for a longer life? I was hoping to tap your knowledge and learn something.
I wasn't questioning your knowledge, I was politely asking a question. A serious one. Which you didn't answer.
My understanding is that the cause of spoke breakage is due to repeated flexing cycles. I also wasn't sure why the OOOO would be more rigid. If the wheel is more rigid wouldn't that make for a longer life? I was hoping to tap your knowledge and learn something.
As for flex, you may be looking at it the wrong way. Wheels don't actually move enough, for flex to make a difference. Possibly road wheels used hard might, given that they see plenty of side loading, but even there, 1-2mm movement at the rim would be an awful lot, and what does that translate to at the hub end?
Fatigue is caused by the repeated changes in tension as the wheel moves under load. So it's not shape changes, but changes in load that matter. The elbows break because the tension stresses are at right angles (shear), so they act as a stress riser, and break the same way a notch would be anywhere in the wire.
There's also some movement as the tension changes, but it's hard to explain without a sketch. However, if you accept that the elbow is poorly supported in the flange, pulling the spoke down would cam the short leg in the spoke hole changing the bend at the elbow. This is why builders prefer tight spoke holes and the spoke to lie against the flange as much as possible.
So when you think "flex" think in terms of the spoke getting longer and shorter, not bending sideways.
I hope that helped.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#60
Calamari Marionette Ph.D
Nope. I am looking at it exactly the way you describe below. I was wording it all wrong by using the word "flex".
I think of it as stretched-released-stretched-released-repeat-repeat-repeat. Don't know why I used "flex".
This part I have always understood too.
So I still don't understand two things and would like to learn.
1. How does eliminating the weave at the final cross make the wheel more rigid?
2. And does that particular increase in rigidity affect the amount of tension change the wheel experiences?
Fatigue is caused by the repeated changes in tension as the wheel moves under load.
There's also some movement as the tension changes, but it's hard to explain without a sketch. However, if you accept that the elbow is poorly supported in the flange, pulling the spoke down would cam the short leg in the spoke hole changing the bend at the elbow. This is why builders prefer tight spoke holes and the spoke to lie against the flange as much as possible.
So I still don't understand two things and would like to learn.
1. How does eliminating the weave at the final cross make the wheel more rigid?
2. And does that particular increase in rigidity affect the amount of tension change the wheel experiences?
#61
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,724
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5790 Post(s)
Liked 2,581 Times
in
1,431 Posts
Nope. I am looking at it exactly the way you describe below. I was wording it all wrong by using the word "flex".
I think of it as stretched-released-stretched-released-repeat-repeat-repeat. Don't know why I used "flex".
This part I have always understood too.
So I still don't understand two things and would like to learn.
1. How does eliminating the weave at the final cross make the wheel more rigid?
2. And does that particular increase in rigidity affect the amount of tension change the wheel experiences?
I think of it as stretched-released-stretched-released-repeat-repeat-repeat. Don't know why I used "flex".
This part I have always understood too.
So I still don't understand two things and would like to learn.
1. How does eliminating the weave at the final cross make the wheel more rigid?
2. And does that particular increase in rigidity affect the amount of tension change the wheel experiences?
I think you can see that an unwoven spoke runs straight and true to the rim.
But consider what happens with the weave (or look at your wheel. Each spoke is no longer straight. Instead it has a slight bend at the last cross. This means that if/when the tension increases the spoke tries to straighten, pushing it's mate out of the way. By the same token, when tension is eased, it relaxes and let itself get bent more as the mate straightens.
This ability to straighten and relax by working with the mate means that the peak tension changes felt at the ends is mitigated, sort like how the crushing styrene in your helmet reduces the Gs to the brain.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#62
Calamari Marionette Ph.D
#63
curmudgineer
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Chicago SW burbs
Posts: 4,417
Bikes: 2 many 2 fit here
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 263 Post(s)
Liked 112 Times
in
70 Posts
This
and this
are good info.
Fatigue is caused by the repeated changes in tension as the wheel moves under load. So it's not shape changes, but changes in load that matter. The elbows break because the tension stresses are at right angles (shear), so they act as a stress riser, and break the same way a notch would be anywhere in the wire.
There's also some movement as the tension changes, but it's hard to explain without a sketch. However, if you accept that the elbow is poorly supported in the flange, pulling the spoke down would cam the short leg in the spoke hole changing the bend at the elbow. This is why builders prefer tight spoke holes and the spoke to lie against the flange as much as possible.
There's also some movement as the tension changes, but it's hard to explain without a sketch. However, if you accept that the elbow is poorly supported in the flange, pulling the spoke down would cam the short leg in the spoke hole changing the bend at the elbow. This is why builders prefer tight spoke holes and the spoke to lie against the flange as much as possible.
and this
But consider what happens with the weave (or look at your wheel. Each spoke is no longer straight. Instead it has a slight bend at the last cross. This means that if/when the tension increases the spoke tries to straighten, pushing it's mate out of the way. By the same token, when tension is eased, it relaxes and let itself get bent more as the mate straightens.
This ability to straighten and relax by working with the mate means that the peak tension changes felt at the ends is mitigated, sort like how the crushing styrene in your helmet reduces the Gs to the brain.
This ability to straighten and relax by working with the mate means that the peak tension changes felt at the ends is mitigated, sort like how the crushing styrene in your helmet reduces the Gs to the brain.
#64
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,724
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5790 Post(s)
Liked 2,581 Times
in
1,431 Posts
You're welcome, and see ---- I wasn't angry.
The hard part in explaining this kind of stuff in a forum is you never know what people are getting, where they got lost, and the particular bit that they're missing.
I prefer teaching in person, where I an watch people's eyes and adjust the presentation accordingly. I also get to use sketches and physical props to demonstrate principles.
The hard part in explaining this kind of stuff in a forum is you never know what people are getting, where they got lost, and the particular bit that they're missing.
I prefer teaching in person, where I an watch people's eyes and adjust the presentation accordingly. I also get to use sketches and physical props to demonstrate principles.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#65
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Hopkinton, MA
Posts: 1,538
Bikes: 1938 Raleigh Record Ace (2), 1938 Schwinn Paramount, 1961 Torpado, 1964? Frejus, 1980 Raleigh 753 Team Pro, Moulton, other stuff...
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times
in
11 Posts
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,724
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5790 Post(s)
Liked 2,581 Times
in
1,431 Posts
It's all theater.
Sometimes you come on angry or frustrated and suddenly people think you're serious and start listening.
Folks in the NYC cycling community might remember Lenny Prenheim of Toga Bike Shop. He was the absolute master of using dramatics to get attention. Lenny was a good friend for years and ranks near the top of old cycling friends I miss these days.
Sometimes you come on angry or frustrated and suddenly people think you're serious and start listening.
Folks in the NYC cycling community might remember Lenny Prenheim of Toga Bike Shop. He was the absolute master of using dramatics to get attention. Lenny was a good friend for years and ranks near the top of old cycling friends I miss these days.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#67
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,399
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,699 Times
in
2,519 Posts
I used to be absolutely convinced that the pulling spokes should be elbows out/heads in. So much so that I would start over if I had a lapse of attention. Fast forward to recent times, and I find out that the conventional wisdom has reversed. So I start building them elbows in. The elbows out wheel on my main bike from the early '80s lasted 30 years of hard use. My conclusion is that it doesn't actually matter. But now I do things like line up the logo with the valve hole because some people are ridiculous and I don't want to give them anything to notice before they go away and bother someone else. It's the wheelbuilding equivalent of nodding in agreement and backing away slowly.
As far as how you lace a wheel, I've watched videos of factory people lacing wheels. I really think my method could be just as fast or faster with a lacing stand and a little practice. I put all the inward facing spokes and then the outward facing spokes. This means there is only the final overlap. They are overlapping each spoke from what I see. I'm amazed that they can keep things straight. I used to be able to build a wheel in 5 minutes, and that was without a lacing stand
As far as how you lace a wheel, I've watched videos of factory people lacing wheels. I really think my method could be just as fast or faster with a lacing stand and a little practice. I put all the inward facing spokes and then the outward facing spokes. This means there is only the final overlap. They are overlapping each spoke from what I see. I'm amazed that they can keep things straight. I used to be able to build a wheel in 5 minutes, and that was without a lacing stand
#68
Senior Member
I really don't think they thought about it that much BITD. Asymmetrical is just the old school way of doing it. It is very fast, faster than symmetrical. You put all the spokes in at once till you get this big porcupine thing and go. It seems awkward but it works. I built my first set of wheels asymmetrical following directions in a book when I was 14. They were fine. IIRC I used it on couple occasions after than when I needed to build a couple sets of cheap wheels fast.
#69
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Near Pottstown, PA: 30 miles NW of Philadelphia
Posts: 2,186
Bikes: 2 Trek Mtn, Cannondale R600 road, 6 vintage road bikes
Mentioned: 83 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 472 Post(s)
Liked 1,028 Times
in
404 Posts
I think we're forgetting the most important thing when wheel building. This is critical. Remember it.
When lacing your wheels, make sure that when you look down the valve hole you can see the hub logo. I was taught that you should see the Campagnolo world, back when that was the only real choice.
When lacing your wheels, make sure that when you look down the valve hole you can see the hub logo. I was taught that you should see the Campagnolo world, back when that was the only real choice.
Not just higgly-piggly "always done er dat way" past down thru the ages traditions. Sheeeeeeesh!
Say, is there an emoji for "higgly-piggly traditions"?
#70
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 746
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 22 Times
in
18 Posts
Here is a scientific study published in Journal of Engineering Mechanics , August 1996, Vol. 122, No. 8 : pp. 736-742: https://dx.doi.org/10.1061/(ASCE)0733...1996)122:8(736)
Bicycle-Wheel Spoke Patterns and Spoke Fatigue
Henri P. Gavin, Associate Member, ASCE
Asst. Prof., Dept. of Civ. Engrg., Duke Univ., Durham, NC 27708-0287.
The radial, lateral, and tangential stiffness of spoked bicycle wheels depends
upon the rim's bending inertia, torsional inertia, the spoke sizes, and the
spoke geometry. The spokes of three rear bicycle wheels of different spoke
patterns were instrumented with strain gauges in order to investigate the
effect of the spoke pattern on the spoke strain and fatigue resistance
properties of the wheels. Spoke strains due to radial loads were measured in the
laboratory. Time records of the strain of a right pulling spoke were collected
from each of the wheels under actual riding conditions. Analytical, numerical,
laboratory, and field studies show that spoke strains due to radial loads and
in service conditions are insensitive to the spoke pattern. Small variations in
the spoke strains between the wheels in the road tests can be attributed to
variations in the loads, but do not significantly affect the fatigue life of
the wheels.
(emphasis mine)
Bicycle-Wheel Spoke Patterns and Spoke Fatigue
Henri P. Gavin, Associate Member, ASCE
Asst. Prof., Dept. of Civ. Engrg., Duke Univ., Durham, NC 27708-0287.
The radial, lateral, and tangential stiffness of spoked bicycle wheels depends
upon the rim's bending inertia, torsional inertia, the spoke sizes, and the
spoke geometry. The spokes of three rear bicycle wheels of different spoke
patterns were instrumented with strain gauges in order to investigate the
effect of the spoke pattern on the spoke strain and fatigue resistance
properties of the wheels. Spoke strains due to radial loads were measured in the
laboratory. Time records of the strain of a right pulling spoke were collected
from each of the wheels under actual riding conditions. Analytical, numerical,
laboratory, and field studies show that spoke strains due to radial loads and
in service conditions are insensitive to the spoke pattern. Small variations in
the spoke strains between the wheels in the road tests can be attributed to
variations in the loads, but do not significantly affect the fatigue life of
the wheels.
(emphasis mine)
#71
What??? Only 2 wheels?
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Boston-ish, MA
Posts: 13,434
Bikes: 72 Peugeot UO-8, 82 Peugeot TH8, 87 Bianchi Brava, 76? Masi Grand Criterium, 74 Motobecane Champion Team, 86 & 77 Gazelle champion mondial, 81? Grandis, 82? Tommasini, 83 Peugeot PF10
Mentioned: 189 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1222 Post(s)
Liked 645 Times
in
232 Posts
Regardless, or if you prefer, irregardless, of the intended humor , I've had a big problem with this. Most of the used Campy hubs I've strung up had been strung previously such that I could not reuse the same spoke directions through the holes and get the logo to line up as I wished. Oh the grief that has caused. I hate being stopped by the style police when I'm trying to beat my best time on some course.
__________________
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
#72
Calamari Marionette Ph.D
Originally Posted by realsteel[I
. Analytical, numerical,
laboratory, and field studies show that spoke strains due to radial loads and
in service conditions are insensitive to the spoke pattern.[/I]
laboratory, and field studies show that spoke strains due to radial loads and
in service conditions are insensitive to the spoke pattern.[/I]
#73
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 6,480
Mentioned: 93 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1361 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 424 Times
in
283 Posts
I admit to incorrectly building some wheels, nothing though that could be redone and I'm always learning. My primary guideline was from using Sloane's Bike Book, over - over - under.
My peave and frustration is how to correct a rim with a slight flat spot. Once tried to use a plywood jig to re-shape curvature and ended up hairline fracturing the rims sidewall.
My peave and frustration is how to correct a rim with a slight flat spot. Once tried to use a plywood jig to re-shape curvature and ended up hairline fracturing the rims sidewall.
#75
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Yukon, Canada
Posts: 8,759
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 16 Times
in
14 Posts
I do as well, unless it's a used hub then I'll USUALLY follow the previous pattern to hide markings, though I have deviated from the previous pattern if the marks are faints. Never had a problem either way. Every wheel I've built has remained rock solid often not needing to be trued for 1000s of kms.
__________________
1 Super Record bike, 1 Nuovo Record bike, 1 Pista, 1 Road, 1 Cyclocross/Allrounder, 1 MTB, 1 Touring, 1 Fixed gear
1 Super Record bike, 1 Nuovo Record bike, 1 Pista, 1 Road, 1 Cyclocross/Allrounder, 1 MTB, 1 Touring, 1 Fixed gear