Mixing parts on a new build?
07-31-16, 08:14 AM
#1
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Mixing parts on a new build?
I'm getting ready to build a new to me 1978 Trek TX 900 (build pics to come, 
) (columbus SL tubing) and I need some advice on the build. I'm trying to stick with short cage RDs and still have good climbing gears (going with a 13-28 in the rear).
I've settled on the crank (a stonglight 99 with 47/32 rings) but the bike is otherwise pretty much all campy nouvo record (hubs, headset, brakes).
I'm undecided on the derailleur set.
(1) Easy peasy is going with campy NR derailleurs since that gives me a matched set. The RD doesn't have a lot of capacity though and doesn't shift as well as say a slant parallelogram RD.
(2) I could keep it all European and go with a mixed derailleur set, stronglight downtube shifters, campy NR FD, and a sachs huret new success RD. That sachs huret new success RD can handle a max cog of 30 and has 30 tooth capacity. Not bad for a quality short cage RD. This keeps the build pretty much European and a mixed parts build was a lot more common back when parts didn't index.
(3) Door no. 3 is to go with cyclone mark II derailleurs. Good capacity and max cog capacity here. Plus this is I think the best shifting out of all the vintage derailleurs with the slant parallelogram design. But it bugs me a bit to go with a mainly campy build, stronglight crank, and Japanese derailleurs. On the other hand, suntour derailleurs--back in the day--were the best shifting ones out there.
So should I go with door no. 1 (all campy except the stronglight crank), door no. 2 (a mix of French and Italian parts), or door no. 3 (mix Italian, French, and Japanese parts)?
) (columbus SL tubing) and I need some advice on the build. I'm trying to stick with short cage RDs and still have good climbing gears (going with a 13-28 in the rear).I've settled on the crank (a stonglight 99 with 47/32 rings) but the bike is otherwise pretty much all campy nouvo record (hubs, headset, brakes).
I'm undecided on the derailleur set.
(1) Easy peasy is going with campy NR derailleurs since that gives me a matched set. The RD doesn't have a lot of capacity though and doesn't shift as well as say a slant parallelogram RD.
(2) I could keep it all European and go with a mixed derailleur set, stronglight downtube shifters, campy NR FD, and a sachs huret new success RD. That sachs huret new success RD can handle a max cog of 30 and has 30 tooth capacity. Not bad for a quality short cage RD. This keeps the build pretty much European and a mixed parts build was a lot more common back when parts didn't index.
(3) Door no. 3 is to go with cyclone mark II derailleurs. Good capacity and max cog capacity here. Plus this is I think the best shifting out of all the vintage derailleurs with the slant parallelogram design. But it bugs me a bit to go with a mainly campy build, stronglight crank, and Japanese derailleurs. On the other hand, suntour derailleurs--back in the day--were the best shifting ones out there.
So should I go with door no. 1 (all campy except the stronglight crank), door no. 2 (a mix of French and Italian parts), or door no. 3 (mix Italian, French, and Japanese parts)?
Last edited by bikemig; 07-31-16 at 08:18 AM.
07-31-16, 08:23 AM
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I'd pick door number 3. I have a Shimano 600 long cage on my Motobecane Grand Record. The Japanese offered the best derailleurs from 1972 to 1985. I owned a complete TX 900 and still have the frame set. The prior owner installed a Shimano mixture on the bike. If I was to build it up, I would install 2x7 Shimano or Suntour drivetrain from that era along with a French crankset with 48 & 36 chainrings.
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When I ride my bike I feel free and happy and strong. I'm liberated from the usual nonsense of day to day life. Solid, dependable, silent, my bike is my horse, my fighter jet, my island, my friend. Together we will conquer that hill and thereafter the world.
When I ride my bike I feel free and happy and strong. I'm liberated from the usual nonsense of day to day life. Solid, dependable, silent, my bike is my horse, my fighter jet, my island, my friend. Together we will conquer that hill and thereafter the world.
Last edited by Barrettscv; 07-31-16 at 08:46 AM.
07-31-16, 09:24 AM
#3
~>~
07-31-16, 12:22 PM
#4
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...I'm not a big matchy-matchy proponent, and have put together all sorts of stuff for my own use that just borrows from what I have in my posession already that works well. I have also been one of those jerks who constantly ridiculed Campy guys through the Suntour years.
Having said that, the Campy Record and New Record stuff works a whole lot better with indexing cable housing, a ramped feewheel or freehub cluster, and a KMC X plate chain that you can buy on the internet for like 12 or 14 bucks. Really well..........surprisingly well if you remember how much youi used to have to overshift to make them work as original. But it won't solve your cage length problem for gear range.
...I'm not a big matchy-matchy proponent, and have put together all sorts of stuff for my own use that just borrows from what I have in my posession already that works well. I have also been one of those jerks who constantly ridiculed Campy guys through the Suntour years.
Having said that, the Campy Record and New Record stuff works a whole lot better with indexing cable housing, a ramped feewheel or freehub cluster, and a KMC X plate chain that you can buy on the internet for like 12 or 14 bucks. Really well..........surprisingly well if you remember how much youi used to have to overshift to make them work as original. But it won't solve your cage length problem for gear range.
07-31-16, 12:31 PM
#5
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Door number three.
By the late seventies the only appeal of an all-European build was snob value based on a prejudicial notion that European stuff was better. That may have seemed to make sense at the time, but it sure doesn't make sense now.
By the late seventies the only appeal of an all-European build was snob value based on a prejudicial notion that European stuff was better. That may have seemed to make sense at the time, but it sure doesn't make sense now.
07-31-16, 12:46 PM
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Wow -- good question -- one that I have been pondering a bit too. I love Campy stuff, but I also love newer "compact" drivetrains - with the 50/34 rings . (There are a small handful of square taper Campy compact chainsets out there, but they are kinda' rare )-- not much in the Campy hierarchy in the way of 32 tooth cassettes either
Also, I want to build up a machine with 165mm cranks for a specialized reason - to duplicate the crank length on my track bike --- again - not much out there in 165 from Campy
I'm leaning towards a Velo Orange setup --- or I could throw caution to the wind and install a 600 tri-color groupset and wheels on an Italian frame , as i have one of those with 165 cranks sitting in a box --- (but the combination of a tri color group with an already installed Record headset may cause some to spontaneously loosen their bowels - LOL )
Its tough being married to one different brand sometimes
Also, I want to build up a machine with 165mm cranks for a specialized reason - to duplicate the crank length on my track bike --- again - not much out there in 165 from Campy
I'm leaning towards a Velo Orange setup --- or I could throw caution to the wind and install a 600 tri-color groupset and wheels on an Italian frame , as i have one of those with 165 cranks sitting in a box --- (but the combination of a tri color group with an already installed Record headset may cause some to spontaneously loosen their bowels - LOL )
Its tough being married to one different brand sometimes
07-31-16, 02:20 PM
#7
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Door number 3. Not long after our wedding I built the UO-8 for my wife on our tight grad student and substitute teacher budget. Since I worked part-time at a Peugeot/Nishiki dealership, I was able to start with a bare frame, which I outfitted with parts I had on hand or could scrounge economically: TA 3-bolt Professional cranks (52-42), Shimano Titlist front derailleur, SunTour V-GT rear derailleur (from my Nishiki), Schwinn TwinStik stem shifters, Peugeot UO-18 upright bars, custom-built 16-18-21-24-32 Maeda SunTour freewheel, Normandy Luxe Competition hubs, and Mafac brakes. The mix worked extremely well for her. Now that she rides a mountain bike, and the Peugeot is my beater/commuter, it has a SunTour Cyclone II rear derailleur, 13-26 freewheel, SunTour ratchet barcons, drop bars, and Sugino Mighty Compe crankset (45-42). Nothing wrong with mix and (mis)match, unless you are trying for a Concours d'Elegance and need to be all-original.
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"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
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07-31-16, 02:41 PM
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...I'm not a big matchy-matchy proponent, and have put together all sorts of stuff for my own use that just borrows from what I have in my posession already that works well. I have also been one of those jerks who constantly ridiculed Campy guys through the Suntour years.
Having said that, the Campy Record and New Record stuff works a whole lot better with indexing cable housing, a ramped feewheel or freehub cluster, and a KMC X plate chain that you can buy on the internet for like 12 or 14 bucks. Really well..........surprisingly well if you remember how much youi used to have to overshift to make them work as original. But it won't solve your cage length problem for gear range.
...I'm not a big matchy-matchy proponent, and have put together all sorts of stuff for my own use that just borrows from what I have in my posession already that works well. I have also been one of those jerks who constantly ridiculed Campy guys through the Suntour years.
Having said that, the Campy Record and New Record stuff works a whole lot better with indexing cable housing, a ramped feewheel or freehub cluster, and a KMC X plate chain that you can buy on the internet for like 12 or 14 bucks. Really well..........surprisingly well if you remember how much youi used to have to overshift to make them work as original. But it won't solve your cage length problem for gear range.
).I'm surprised that the Sachs new success RD gets no love on this site. It won't shift as nicely as suntour (no slant parallelogram) but it has a lot of capacity for a short cage "racing" RD:
Sachs-Huret New Success derailleur
Last edited by bikemig; 07-31-16 at 02:56 PM.
08-01-16, 08:04 AM
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Matched component groups began as a marketing ploy and didn't offer any functional advantage until indexed shifting came into vogue. If you're planning on using friction shifting there's no compelling reason not to go with the best performing derailleurs: SunTour Cyclone hands down wins among those you're considering. Besides, many of those old Treks shipped as bare frames and could be built up with any combination of parts.
08-01-16, 08:43 AM
#11
Still learning
Make that TX900 great again.
That frame was built in the all-inclusive USA.
It doesn't matter what nationality of parts you hang on that Trek!
Door #3.
That frame was built in the all-inclusive USA.
It doesn't matter what nationality of parts you hang on that Trek!
Door #3.
08-01-16, 12:50 PM
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Another vote for Door #3. SunTour's slant parallelogram is "new" in the same sense that the Beatles are a "new" band. Go with what works best!
When I rebuilt my rando bike, I don't think I used any two parts that matched each other except for paired things like the shifters and brake calipers/levers. Love it.
When I rebuilt my rando bike, I don't think I used any two parts that matched each other except for paired things like the shifters and brake calipers/levers. Love it.
08-01-16, 06:26 PM
#13
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I allowed myself one "Europe Forward" build, just to relieve the monotony of my all/mostly Japanese equipped fleet.
Underneath the powdercoat is a late 70's (I assume) CILO that was well loved and repainted by its previous owner(s).
Equipment, not counting consumables like chain, freewheel, chainrings, saddle, is European *except*
It turns out that Avocet BBs are unique in the bearing area, ergo Avocet triple BBs/spindles are like hen's teeth, hence the departure from European BB in the conversion.
I didn't list the Blackburn rear rack and unknown brand front rack in the exceptions, which I don't count in the basic build, and are cool enough anyway in their own right. Not to mention accessories like lighting.
Initially I was targeting a mid-late 70's flavour, but this is truly a working bike and I decided that the triple upgrade was needed to let the bike reach its full commuting potential. I would have gladly fitted a Campy Strada triple, but couldn't justify the going price, so I settled for an Avocet triple that happens to be the same design as the Avocet double that the bike had when it came to me. This choice also allowed me to leverage my modest collection of 144mm chainrings, vs oddball European sizes like 122mm, of which my inventory is but meagre.
Underneath the powdercoat is a late 70's (I assume) CILO that was well loved and repainted by its previous owner(s).
Equipment, not counting consumables like chain, freewheel, chainrings, saddle, is European *except*
- seatpost - Strong
- [pending] bottom bracket - current Avocet to be replaced by unknown brand JIS BB, in order to facilitate triple crankset (Avocet) conversion
It turns out that Avocet BBs are unique in the bearing area, ergo Avocet triple BBs/spindles are like hen's teeth, hence the departure from European BB in the conversion.
I didn't list the Blackburn rear rack and unknown brand front rack in the exceptions, which I don't count in the basic build, and are cool enough anyway in their own right. Not to mention accessories like lighting.
Initially I was targeting a mid-late 70's flavour, but this is truly a working bike and I decided that the triple upgrade was needed to let the bike reach its full commuting potential. I would have gladly fitted a Campy Strada triple, but couldn't justify the going price, so I settled for an Avocet triple that happens to be the same design as the Avocet double that the bike had when it came to me. This choice also allowed me to leverage my modest collection of 144mm chainrings, vs oddball European sizes like 122mm, of which my inventory is but meagre.
Last edited by old's'cool; 08-01-16 at 06:26 PM. Reason: network glitch
08-01-16, 07:19 PM
#14
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Matched component groups began as a marketing ploy and didn't offer any functional advantage until indexed shifting came into vogue. If you're planning on using friction shifting there's no compelling reason not to go with the best performing derailleurs: SunTour Cyclone hands down wins among those you're considering. Besides, many of those old Treks shipped as bare frames and could be built up with any combination of parts.
Even if you wanted to be period correct, the only common matched component group in 1978 was campy. Shimano was around, but a bit player. Suntour Cyclones would have been very typical and the favored option if running a 13-28. If you were using a 13-21, then consider campy NR derailleurs.
08-01-16, 07:21 PM
#15
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Even Campy wasn't matched groupsets back then. All-Campy was a choice, some wanted all Euro, but if you go back to '71, Motobecane mixed Huret FD and Suntour RD on their high-grade bikes and continued through the decade. Weinmann brakes, etc.
https://sellwoodcycle.com/collections...-grand-jubilee
My favorite 7-sp setup is Suntour RD with Shimano FD - form follows function.
https://sellwoodcycle.com/collections...-grand-jubilee
My favorite 7-sp setup is Suntour RD with Shimano FD - form follows function.
Last edited by bulldog1935; 08-01-16 at 09:11 PM.
08-01-16, 07:26 PM
#16
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Therefore I suspect the supposedly unique tapers are simply production variation.
It's easy enough to try. Put them on with full force, pull the bolts, and look to see if the crank is sitting properly far enough up on the spindle.
*EDIT According to sutherlands, there was an early proprietary ofmega and early avocet size that was smaller. I never saw one in the wild when I was wrenching.
Last edited by Salamandrine; 08-01-16 at 07:45 PM.
08-01-16, 08:29 PM
#17
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144 bcd Strada-clone cranks sure are beautiful, though.
Here's the one (Mighty Comp) that was on my Raleigh from '78 to 5 years ago.
Now it's on my daughter's Team Fuji
speaking of mix, she has Chorus brakes and Ultegra 6500 9-sp.
Here's the one (Mighty Comp) that was on my Raleigh from '78 to 5 years ago.
Now it's on my daughter's Team Fuji
speaking of mix, she has Chorus brakes and Ultegra 6500 9-sp.
08-01-16, 08:36 PM
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I'll be the contrarian and suggest Door #2 because I'm a real fan of the Sachs New Success RD's. I have them (medium cage with Sachs Ergo shifters) on both my bikes, and the short cage version I used on my Klein touring bike for over 15,000 miles never showed any signs of wear, as long as the pulleys were greased once in a while. The pivots never developed any play. They setup as quickly as any Shimano, as long as the upper pulley has a bit of lateral play, as designed (like Shimano RD's).
08-01-16, 09:05 PM
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I'll be the contrarian and say I wouldn't hesitate to try the all-NR build if I had the parts on hand already. My only NR setup is 52/42 up front and 14-32 out back and it works fine (yeah, not as slick as a SunTour slanty, and no, I don't use the big-big combo). I would rank my Pat 74 short cage with the Shimano rear derailleurs of the time, but a step below the SunTours. I do like the delicate touch you get with NR shifters working NR derailleurs. Feels somehow more refined, or something
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● 1971 Grandis SL ● 1972 Lambert Grand Prix frankenbike ● 1972 Raleigh Super Course fixie ● 1973 Nishiki Semi-Pro ● 1979 Motobecane Grand Jubile ●1980 Apollo "Legnano" ● 1984 Peugeot Vagabond ● 1985 Shogun Prairie Breaker ● 1986 Merckx Super Corsa ● 1987 Schwinn Tempo ● 1988 Schwinn Voyageur ● 1989 Bottechia Team ADR replica ● 1990 Cannondale ST600 ● 1993 Technium RT600 ● 1996 Kona Lava Dome ●
● 1971 Grandis SL ● 1972 Lambert Grand Prix frankenbike ● 1972 Raleigh Super Course fixie ● 1973 Nishiki Semi-Pro ● 1979 Motobecane Grand Jubile ●1980 Apollo "Legnano" ● 1984 Peugeot Vagabond ● 1985 Shogun Prairie Breaker ● 1986 Merckx Super Corsa ● 1987 Schwinn Tempo ● 1988 Schwinn Voyageur ● 1989 Bottechia Team ADR replica ● 1990 Cannondale ST600 ● 1993 Technium RT600 ● 1996 Kona Lava Dome ●
Last edited by Lascauxcaveman; 08-01-16 at 09:22 PM.
08-01-16, 10:12 PM
#20
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I'll be the contrarian and suggest Door #2 because I'm a real fan of the Sachs New Success RD's. I have them (medium cage with Sachs Ergo shifters) on both my bikes, and the short cage version I used on my Klein touring bike for over 15,000 miles never showed any signs of wear, as long as the pulleys were greased once in a while. The pivots never developed any play. They setup as quickly as any Shimano, as long as the upper pulley has a bit of lateral play, as designed (like Shimano RD's).
I'll be the contrarian and say I wouldn't hesitate to try the all-NR build if I had the parts on hand already. My only NR setup is 52/42 up front and 14-32 out back and it works fine (yeah, not as slick as a SunTour slanty, and no, I don't use the big-big combo). I would rank my Pat 74 short cage with the Shimano rear derailleurs of the time, but a step below the SunTours. I do like the delicate touch you get with NR shifters working NR derailleurs. Feels somehow more refined, or something
Last edited by bikemig; 08-01-16 at 10:23 PM.
08-01-16, 11:08 PM
#21
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Never know 'til you try 
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● 1971 Grandis SL ● 1972 Lambert Grand Prix frankenbike ● 1972 Raleigh Super Course fixie ● 1973 Nishiki Semi-Pro ● 1979 Motobecane Grand Jubile ●1980 Apollo "Legnano" ● 1984 Peugeot Vagabond ● 1985 Shogun Prairie Breaker ● 1986 Merckx Super Corsa ● 1987 Schwinn Tempo ● 1988 Schwinn Voyageur ● 1989 Bottechia Team ADR replica ● 1990 Cannondale ST600 ● 1993 Technium RT600 ● 1996 Kona Lava Dome ●
● 1971 Grandis SL ● 1972 Lambert Grand Prix frankenbike ● 1972 Raleigh Super Course fixie ● 1973 Nishiki Semi-Pro ● 1979 Motobecane Grand Jubile ●1980 Apollo "Legnano" ● 1984 Peugeot Vagabond ● 1985 Shogun Prairie Breaker ● 1986 Merckx Super Corsa ● 1987 Schwinn Tempo ● 1988 Schwinn Voyageur ● 1989 Bottechia Team ADR replica ● 1990 Cannondale ST600 ● 1993 Technium RT600 ● 1996 Kona Lava Dome ●
08-01-16, 11:18 PM
#22
Shifting is fun!
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Period correctness is not an issue. Both Raleigh and Gazelle mixed European and Japanese parts BITD.
08-02-16, 01:36 PM
#23
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I don't think too many people have tried out the Sachs new success RDs; they're very good and came in two flavors, one that was friction, the other indexed. The friction one was a shimano crane copy; the indexing one is beautiful and can handle up to 32 teeth, Sachs New Success derailleur
I didn't realize that the Sachs NS RD accomodates a 32t cog; I assumed that 28t was the max.
It shifts an 8-speed 12-28 cassette just great with the matching New Success (aka Campy Ergopower) brifters.
08-02-16, 02:17 PM
#24
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Friction shifting works wit Mixes of many sorts.
BTW 'Avocet' was made By Ofmega In Italy, so I expect its ISO taper BB Not JIS..
BTW 'Avocet' was made By Ofmega In Italy, so I expect its ISO taper BB Not JIS..
08-02-16, 02:36 PM
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Bikes: '74 Raleigh International utility; '98 Moser Forma road; '92 Viner Pro CX upright
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gruppo is correct Italian, gruppe is when you compound it to make a German pun, Frankengruppe.
Speaking of Frankengruppe, my '98 Moser would have most likely been matched to an 8-sp Mirage group with ergo (my frame came with a sealed-bearing Mirage bb and a steel ITM stem).
But this is my bike - I ride with toe clips in MKS Nuovo Wide pedals. C-Record/Moskva wheelset, 8-sp Record cassette, Chorus RD, Daytona FD, C-Record friction downtube shifters, twenty-naughties Centaur Crank and Chorus brakes, Modolo levers, Nitto stem and Cinelli 64 bars. At one point counting my straight-lever Campy QR on A/C/Mavic tubies and then Shimano 600 EX RD, I had 5 decades of parts on it.
Speaking of Frankengruppe, my '98 Moser would have most likely been matched to an 8-sp Mirage group with ergo (my frame came with a sealed-bearing Mirage bb and a steel ITM stem).
But this is my bike - I ride with toe clips in MKS Nuovo Wide pedals. C-Record/Moskva wheelset, 8-sp Record cassette, Chorus RD, Daytona FD, C-Record friction downtube shifters, twenty-naughties Centaur Crank and Chorus brakes, Modolo levers, Nitto stem and Cinelli 64 bars. At one point counting my straight-lever Campy QR on A/C/Mavic tubies and then Shimano 600 EX RD, I had 5 decades of parts on it.
