Classtime 

How did you find this? There are many ideas wrt the whole knee over pedal spindle thing.

I think you put your levers a little too low on the bars, so start by moving them up a bit. Then ride a round a little before you re wrap the bars.

Watch some pro races with the pause and slow-mo. It amazes me how many positions are "optimal".

Have you been working on your core?

I really think you WANT a new bike frame.

Jeff.

Bandera

Since the OP intends to race:

There are at least two methods of getting an effective comfortable fit for the demands of a structured training program and the precise handling required in racing.

A) Take advantage of the decades of actual experience in coaching & racing that have evolved into an easy repeatable and quantifiable systems for producing a "base fit" that has/does work in racing. Evolve fit from base as the physical adaptation to the machine happens with the requisite seat time, loads and race results. Time is expensive in a structured program and hardware is expensive, not wasting either is not a bad idea if one can use the knowledge of the most successful in the sport for Free.

2) Try lots of different hardware and make changes based on feel.

One costs nothing other than the time to take actual measurements of your body and do simple calculations before spending a $. The other, not so much.

As always, suit yourself.

edit: Join a USAC cycling club, take the New Rider intro & get a coach.

-Bandera
Ex-USCF Certified Coach

ptempel

Saddle position is not determined by the stem length. Its done first using KOPS and some tweaks for the legs only. Then you select the stem length that feels comfy and not too stretched out.

OP, the Miyata may be a little too big. But you can shorten and raise/lower the stem to play with it. Also could try a different seatpost if you feel that the saddle should go further back. I'd recommend a good bike fit person to help to dial in your position. For reference, I'm riding a bike with a 56.5cm effective top tube with a 120mm stem. I'm 6'1" with a longer torso and an inseam just a little longer then yours. Don't feel too bad about the size. You are closer then I was when I used to ride 60cm c-c frames. Also had the seatpost so high at one point that I had to pedal toes down.

sumgy

Agreed (not so much about KOPS, but about the rest).
Saddle position should put you where neither your hamstrings or quads are engaged more whilst pedalling.

Stem length and bar shape is about comfort (so that your back and shoulders are not in pain while riding) and about steering the bike.

repechage

Correct fit is dynamic to a degree, level of fitness can and should be taken into account, intended use too.
(not everyone should be set up to replicate a "pro" racer.

Another aspect not taken into account is almost everyone shrinks with age, gravity strikes back against the spinal discs. I had a half joking argument with my internist when I was 50, I had decreased 25mm in height, I then said so, is this going to change my BMI? He laughed and had to think about that for a short while.
Topical as the press-elect is 1" shorter than claimed, save his driver's license which appears to reflect his accurate height, factor in that reduction and his BMI places him in the obese range.

Andy_K 

Saddle position is also important for balance. While balance is also affected by reach and bar height, moving the saddle forward in an attempt to fix reach problems can result in too much weight on the hands, particularly for riders with a lot of upper body weight.

sumgy

I think personally that stem length and bar height affects that more.

Andy_K 

Maybe. I don't know which is a bigger factor. What I do know is that if you keep the bar in the same position and move the saddle forward it's more likely to cause problems than to fix them.

Somewhere I saw an experiment described to demonstrate what I'm saying. You stand with your heels and backside against a wall then try to bend at the waist. You fall forward. The further you bend, the more your hips have to go back to maintain balance. On a bike, this is essentially what you're doing. You want your weight more or less balanced over the pedals. The further back the saddle is, the further you can lean forward.

Raising the bars is very good, because in addition to moving the bars back slightly because of the head tube angle this also effectively increases your capacity for reach because for any given shoulder position your arms can reach further as you lift your hands higher. Or conversely, you don't have to lean as far forward to reach higher bars.

noglider 

I disagree with most of what people are saying here. I think your bike is not too big. Measuring your body and determining what dimensions to use on your bike isn't going to help unless you use it relative to what you've been doing.

If bikes didn't come in 2-cm increments in size, you wouldn't feel you have the wrong size. Seatposts go up and down and fore and back to make the final fit. Stems can be changed. It's almost certain you'll be happier once you get a stem with a shorter reach.

Your saddle position may be good, and you may end up moving it to find the best fit. Moving it forward can fix the reach problem and then cause another fit problem.

I like Peter White's approach to fitting. Base it on what is comfortable and not.

sumgy

Yes, also the further back you are the more you will engage your hamstrings and the further forward you move your saddle, the more you will engage your quads.

TimmyT 

The OP knows his height and inseam and knows his bike size. Measuring himself is free and only takes time. He thinks he is uncomfortable, but it's a guess as to why that is. Until there are some numbers, there's no way to know.

@Bandera points out that gear modifications are expensive and may not produce useful results.

Bandera

For anyone interested in actually racing a C&V bike now as the OP proposes in Post #1 asking the same questions in the BF Racing sub-forum Masters Racing (All Disciplines) may well provide more useful information from those who actually rode the old hardware "back when" in competition, know the "fit" for that hardware and have contemporary racing experience.

There is a certain amount of "noise" in C&V from those who have never competed back when (or ever) about how this/that was imagined to be in race fit or what-ever who post anyway with no actual experience. That's BF.
There seems to be a need for the Period Correct Police after all...

\-Bandera

Classtime 

I think all that has changed fit wise from the steel bike era to the carbon bike era is the amount of time spent on the hoods which has lowered the hoods and raised the drop in drop bars no one is reaching for DT shifters so they sit on the hoods.

Classtime 

Try this experiment on the bike -- Out on the road, straight and no traffic, while applying power to the pedals in racing/aero/whatever/hunched over position, lift your hands off the bars but leave your upper body where it was. It shouldn't be hard to do if your saddle is where it should be and your core is reasonably strong. Make adjustments where necessary.

Bandera

This is C&V but: Yep, the Tech has changed from "back when".
Ask the current multiple Nat'l Champs in the Masters Racing sub-forum about how that has changed their fit over the decades.
They will respond, if they have taken some Geritol.

Watch "Stars & Water Carriers" & "The Hell of the North" to see how much time was actually spent on the tops/hoods in the Classic era and re-think your post about "amount of time spent on the hoods".

Perhaps I'll be joining the Period Correct Police after all...

-Bandera

repechage

In SoCal, our outstanding Master's Racer, got caught finally taking PED's… the things folk will do for a podium spot!

I was out riding two years ago and caught up to a contemporary riding a full on bike, $3K wheels, full race kit etc. He asked in a very straightforward way, "What are you taking" "huh?" "you know, what regime are you on to enhance performance?"

I recall decades ago, when in the group, on the hoods, when at the front, in the drops, unless climbing. Then often you were on the tops.

Chrome Molly

To summarize, more slack seat tube shorter top tube...

Bandera

Uh, No not PEDs, it was a (failed) joke on the '60's advertising that "old people" needed to take "Geritol" (what ever that was).
Our BF Masters Natl'l champs don't need any Geritol, as most of us active elders do not.

Back when as you remember we rode the hoods 80% of the time in a paceline, on the drops when taking a pull or into the wind and on the tops on a long climb. Today: Same, same w/o having to reach down to shift and having >twice the gearing options available.

-Bandera

hoyc

Thanks all for the input. I think i may have overstated how uncomfortable i felt on the bike. I've done centuries and my back and shoulders are relatively happy at the end of the ride (my butt is a different story though...). I think my main motive for going with a smaller size was to see if I could improve the handling, as sometimes i feel like there is "too much" bike underneath me. Plus there's an inherent "cool" factor in having just the right amount of seat post coming from the bike.

I was doing a trainer session today (damn you snow!) and figured I may as well take a few photos. I fiddled around with them in photoshop, and my position does not look as bad as I thought. As a disclaimer, this is by no means an accurate or scientific measurement.

One thing I did notice, is how far in front of the front axle my hands fall when they are on the hoods, especially compared to when I am riding in the drops. Looking at some old photos, it looks like racers back in the day used to position their hands just above the front axle. I wonder if this has any appreciable effect on bike handling? This being said though, I am using fairly shallow handlebars with short reach. If I was using racing bars with a classic bend, I'm certain the hoods and drops would be too far forward. I may try raising my hoods by about a cm or so.

That being said, my bike does not fit as poorly as I initially thought, and actually I am pretty happy with the position. I could probably use some work to get my core stronger and be more flexible (since I look a bit hunchy maybe). Though in an ideal world I think I'd still go down a size, and maybe with some different handlebars.

sumgy

Knee angles are not really used as a measure of good bike fit anymore.,
Also if you go by "old school" bike fit your eyes should be over your stem, and you should look down through your bars and not be able to see your hub when your hands are out on the hoods.

Salamandrine 

Position is fine. It's actually a bit on the upright side. You could be more stretched out if you intend to race. It may be that you need to ride more miles and let you body adapt.

I second the recommendation to join a bike club with some USAC racers. They will help you out, even if you don't get a coach.

3alarmer 

...I would do this as well. Even if you are dead set against moving your saddle forward, there's plenty of room for you to shorten your overall stretch on the bike with a shorter stem. Much cheaper, easily accomplished, and your best place to start out.

bradtx

hoyc, I ride three different sized bikes and every one of them have begun fitting with a KOPS and leg extension set-up (Guidelines rather than absolute rule.). Stem and handle bar reach is then determined by what I call a natural grasp to the hoods and the drops. The latter can change depending on what the bicycle is intended for the most; racing, distance riding, or touring because posture ranges from aggressive to more upright.

Interestingly the "Hide the front hub with the handle bar tops." is pretty close IME when viewed from my hoods. Spot on with my crit bike and only a small percentage of the front hub showing on the others.

Overall I don't think you'll need to find a smaller frame.

Brad

SJX426 

I am no exercise junkie by any stretch of the imagination! I did not like the way I felt on the bike and read somewhere that strengthening the core is a very good thing to do. As a result, I started doing sit ups and leg lifts on my back. Initially do 15 sit ups and 10 leg lifts was a real challenge. Today I don't know what the limit is, I do 25 each. My riding comfort is drastically improved as a result and I attribute my ability to stretch out more comfortably to not only improved leg strength but core as well.

I do subscribe to the bar over hub, recognizing that it is dependent on where you have your hands placed. My hand position has moved from on the tops to the hoods and yes it does impact how the bike handles. To counter the "strange" handling, I stopped using the handle bars to turn. Huge difference.

BTW: I am a bit shorter than a few years ago, am over 65 and my stem is about 2" below my saddle.

Chrome Molly

I have taken to using shorter stems than BITD to offset for riding on the hoods vs on the ramps. Your position looks pretty good and you are actually more upright than I would have expected based on your earlier comments. I had you pictured with a shorter torso and longer legs. I still use leg angles as valid for fit and you look ok in that regard. The visual alignment of bars hub eyes should be a good check, just in front of the bar/hub line on the hoods.

The frame seems workable for you. Maybe 1cm shorter stem and post with more setback as an inexpensive change for starters.