raverson

Hoping someone here will recognize what frame this is. Campy dropouts and headset, Came with a Rally RD attached. Sugino BB. Appears to have had a repaint, somewhere along the line.

https://imgur.com/7x9CnhR
https://imgur.com/TzqWTYQ
https://imgur.com/Co2uc9P
https://imgur.com/kvNxBlu
https://imgur.com/2bvTN4L

3speedslow

No pics showing.

raverson

Should be there now...thx.

3speedslow

Nice frame. 70's perhaps with good lug work.

First guess English with the wrap around seat stay and the fork crown. Concerned about what looks like a void on the lower head tube lug.

Could use some more info.... BB threading and size, seat Post diameter, any evidence of decals, holes on head tube and marks on the steering tube.

Andrew R Stewart 

Looks English to me. I suspect before 1980. What might be interesting is the possible different rear stay end treatments, domed on the seat stays and chiseled/milled on the chain stays. The photo is poorly lit so I can't be sure but that's what they look to me. If this is so then it suggests that the frame is from a small time builder who was either still in his learning curve or placed expediency over style. Having better close ups of all the junctions might help others with greater knowledge help you. Andy

juvela

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Lugset Prugnat 62/d.

Crown BOCAMA.

Complete lack of braze-ons tends to suggest '60's somewhat more than '70's. Since we have a respray it is possible one or more may have been removed. There was a time in the early '70's when it was the fashion for owners to remove braze-ons to make their mounts look more modern.

Large holiday in lower head lug joint to headtube.

Steerer may provide additional data.

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T-Mar

The dropout doesn't have the flat and hole for a B-spring. I believe these did not come out until the 1970s, after Campagnolo dropped the B-spring equipped Sport Extra derailleur.

It's also curious that the drive side seat stay end has a dome treatment while the drive side side chain stay appears to have a milled end. So maybe the rear triangle was repaired?

unworthy1

I have seen some Bob Jacksons that used those lugs with that crown but nothing else that would suggest BJ, plus BJ favored the "Dutch style" pinch bolt over these 'regular ears' on the seatlug...so in short: I got nuthin'.

Andrew R Stewart 

Also sadly note what looks to be the lack of the binder ears having any internal reinforcement. Another vote for either a younger builder or one who just wants to get the frames out. this and the drop out details stand in contrast to the wrap over seat stay tops and the lug filing. Andy

raverson

I can confirm 27.2 on the seat tube, and I will take a closer look at the possible holiday on the head tube, might just be dirt. Tomorrow I will pull the fork and get better pics. Thanks for the responses!

juvela

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What be the treatment on the inner face of the right hand stays down near the dropout? If you could make an image of this it might be of assistance to Andy.

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Andrew R Stewart 

As a building detail I could comment on, yes. But as a data point to answer the OP's question of the source of this frame, no. Perhaps others with more time to study the nuances of the many English job shops might have more clue. BTW is there a serial # anywhere? Lacking one gives more credence to a small builder, not a established brand. Andy

raverson

Should have mentioned not seeing one anywhere. I will double check tomorrow.

T-Mar

Given that one dropout end is milled and the other is domed, I'm curious about the treatments of the fork ends and other two dropout ends have. That should at least tell us which treatment is OEM and whether or not the frame has been repirred and which tube(s) have been replaced.

raverson

Took another look at the frame today and removed the BB and fork. Headset and BB are both standard English threading. The fork has no markings on the tube and there are no holes on the inside of the head tube from a missing name badge. No serial number to be found either.

Another look at the rear dropouts from the left side. The stay treatment looks consistent.

https://imgur.com/eLB1z1g

Andrew R Stewart 

Nicer photo! Note the equal set back from the drop out to the chainstay end (on both sides). There may be enough clearance to remove the wheel without the cog contacting the RH inside of the chain stay but that open expanse of drop out tab, compared to the tighter set back of the domed seat stays are out of balance visually.


I doubt you'll ever find out the real maker of this frame. In the mid 1970s there were hundreds of frame kits sold by Proteus, Cycle Imports (on the East coast) and many others. The fledging/learning "builders" were influenced by what they saw in magazines and such. The skills were all across the board and while some aspects of the frame would display real craft on the same frame there would be voids of effort of class.


I don't know if this is an American built frame but I see some of the aspect that I suffered with in my beginnings. Andy

Prowler 

Steep learning curve here for me. If youse all will indulge me, there are terms here that are new to me.

"Large holiday in the lower head lug joint to headtube "??? Holiday?

"...a flat and hole for the B-spring"????

"...the lack of the binder ears having any internal reinforcement"???

Just when I think I'm getting to know something about bicycles, one of these theads comes along. Thanks.

unworthy1

The term "holiday" to refer to a void/error/defect etc. is not exclusive to bicycle frame building, I've heard it used with regard to finishing or other aspects of furniture making, but always thought of it as "old-fashioned" or primarily British-English.

Here's one site for a coatings comp[any wherein it's used liberally:
https://blog.belzona.com/blog/2015/11...in-the-armour/

Those other terms: "flat and hole..." is Campagnolo-specific and "binder ears" also a bicycle term so consider your education now underway...soon you'll be baffling the newbies with the rest of us!

non-fixie 

I know that feeling. And as long as there are still members here that can give me that once in a while, I'm stayin'.

juvela

Back in the 1950's Campagnolo had a rear derialleur model called Sport which had a spring mounted concentric to the upper pivot. The Campagnolo model 1010 road ends had a small hole in them to accept the end of this spring. T-Mar was writing about the transition from the time the dropouts displayed this small hole and when it was discontinued.








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Andrew R Stewart 

"...the lack of the binder ears having any internal reinforcement"??? From Prowler quoting me.


Binder ears are the seat lug's portions that has the seat post binding bolt running through them. That these lug portions are only the lug shell with no added material inside them make for a easily collapsed/distorted shape when the binder bolt is tightened. If a too small post size in used or too much bolt torque is used the ears are crushed inwards. By adding brass/bronze to the ears' hollow insides or, better, fitting a sleeve and brazing it in place one makes the clamping faces (ears) essentially unable to crush. In the photos you can see the start of this crushing on the right ear just as it blends into the lug's body. See this image (from 1884) of a lug's ears that have been reinforced then nicely filed open. You can just barely see the line of brass between the sleeve and the lug's shell. Andy


I just added an even better view of reinforced lug ears. Still from the same era. Andy

unworthy1

^ excellent job from both Andrew R. S. and juvela--- who don't just use the jargon (talk-the-talk) but actually educate and with pictures, too! (walk-the-walk)
You're both better men than I am!

Prowler 

Thank you and Andy and Juvela for the education. I agree that you folks are exemplars of why this forum is so great.

As to the definition of holiday, I think I had such a holiday with the in-laws many years ago. My CRS blurs the facts though.

And as to "baffling the newbies" I donno about that. The LBS where my part time job is still considers me "our vintage expert". These data bytes will help me maintain the delusion. It will sure not be my knowledge of threadless headsets - struggled mightily with one of those today.

73StellaSX76

+1. I really like it when the time is taken to explain the nuances like this. I know some of it, but I'm always learning new stuff. And I hadn't thought of that dropout hole being there for 25-30 years.

raverson

Good eye! Didn't notice it until you mentioned it.

Holiday - Imgur