seypat

Is the headset on straight? Might be the angle, but something does not look right there.

unworthy1

I'll stand in for the grammar Nazis: it's "corroborate" not "collaborate" when used in this sense...but we all understood anyway
Collaborate vs corroborate - Grammarist

Gary Fountain

Sloar, your knowledge of this bike is hard to refute without bring into question your 'knowledge'. I must admit, my doubt aligns with Bianchigirll's (and others), but, then I re-read your paragraph quoted above. It just doesn't seem to fit my logical understanding of Cinelli at that time. Plus, it doesn't have the physical attributes of what I consider a 'Cinelli frame' of that era.

I suppose strange and remarkable things happened and continue to happen in the bike world. 30 plus years have passed and memories are sketchy over that period of time. To ask someone to recall a certain event, like the construction of a prototype frame may be asking too much - it's pretty much another frame. But to a collector and bike enthusiast, with a special interest in that frame, I believe that frame's critical information would be still pretty clear even after 30 years. I own a 1985 Cinelli Supercorsa and I remember everything about that frame since it was offered for sale, new in 1985, in the bikeshop in Geelong, Australia.

From my reading of your paragraph above, it seems that you have owned the bike for some time now and do hold key information regarding the frame and its history. I would like to have further information that you no doubt have regarding this frame. How did you come by it? How do you know its a genuine prototype? Why a German builder? Why not an in-house prototype? It's not like its revolutionary or a top trade secret. Perhaps it was too mundane for the Cinelli works to bother with? Was it just an exercise in 'time-management' and related costs?

I know internal routing was not a new concept in the 1980's but I do appreciate bike builders were producing more and more 'internally routed' frames around this period in time - why wouldn't Cinelli consider a similar option, perhaps on a more customer affordable basis? Is it specifically an 'all-weather' consideration? Etc.

The question regarding the use of Reynolds 531 for a Cinelli frame IS A BIG QUESTION. I wonder if Cinelli asked a builder to produce a frame to their specs where frame components and frame material was not a real consideration? Just a construction/time-management exercise? Just to gauge critical build statistics from a builder without in-house knowledge and to build the frame from 'scratch'. Perhaps the frame materials were just what was available and cheap at that point in time? I'm only guessing but I think the Cinelli/Columbus organisation probably had the luxury of performing such exercises within their budget. After all, it was only 4 frames (if I only had those resources, haha).

This frame (and a very attractive one at that) has raised initial doubts in my mind. Then I re-read your paragraph and respect your knowledge and commitment to your bicycle passion. I am convinced that this frame is genuine, and, indeed a prototype, due to just who you are and what you stand for.

Wileyone 

Is it possible it might be a Leto? Leto is/was a German builder who built Cinelli like Frames using Reynolds 531.

repechage

Interesting question.
When things don't fall in line with expectation, there are always questions.
I don't know very much about Cinelli after the 70's. The plot got lost for me and I no longer paid much attention.
Until Campagnolo 9 speed Record arrived, a local shop now gone ordered a said equipped bike from Cinelli and placed the components on a different frame for a customer, Cinelli could get the groups and no one else seemed to have them. The shop then offered the frame set. Almost purchased it.

sloar 

These are the words of the owner, not me. I haven't seen the bike personally. He's looking to maybe trade for a gravel bike that I have.

Gary Fountain

Now - that's interesting.

Gary Fountain

Thanks sloar for clearing that up in my mind. To me it seemed that you were the bikes actual owner. I suppose you too are turning things over in your mind and have very similar questions and doubts as me.

If it was yours, and you had owned it for some time, I would have concluded it to be true. How do you 'feel' about the current owner????

Can its providence be substantiated? Quite possibly not. Is it then worth anything beyond a nice frame?

sloar 

I don't know the owner, I don't know what I think about it. Looks like a nice bike, I just don't want it turning out to be a Windsor.

Gary Fountain

Hahaha - Windsor did come to mind.

Kactus

Very interesting frame, I really hope we can see some more photos.

Wileyone 

It looks very similar to this Bike.

https://imgur.com/gallery/aKUSK

Vintage Raleigh

Well that's 2 of 4.

sloar 

He did say it originally came with Delta brakes.

Wileyone 

The one on the imgur site has an odd Allen Bolt just above the rear drive dropout.

I still wonder why a company like Cinelli with their skills and resources would farm out a "prototype" like this to a virtually unknown German builder. This may be something you may never know for sure.

sloar 

He sent me a pic of fenders attached, his also has the allen bolts on the front and rear at odd places.

jet sanchEz

I think you should get it

sloar 

Were talking trying to come up with something. Here is another pic of how it will come. Guess he slid 32's on it.

clubman 

Fenders must be quite minimalist with the Delta brakes and that tight rear triangle. (edit, and there they are!)
I'd trade something, not anything for that bike,

sloar 

What about for this?

Wileyone 

Trade.

clubman 

Nope. That's a clean mean machine and the other is a mystery. Apples and oranges are hard to trade, depends on your taste buds.

clubman 

Yeah the Cinelli-ish is in your wheelhouse. I wouldn't know what to do with it.

dailycommute

Interesting story, I would buy the owner a few beers for more entertaining tales. Pretty sure the bike linked above via imgur was for sale only last December here in the forum. Do not remember ask or sale price though maybe owner could tell you more. Not sure if a fair trade or not for that cross bike, of course new bikes depreciate pretty fast.

sloar 

It's a no go, he wanted $500 on top of my bike. Not!