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Old 04-20-17, 09:12 AM   #1
CampioneDItalia
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High-End Original Owner Bikes an Endangered Species?

Soon to be extinct?

Seems locally it's starting to take several weeks to months in between sightings for "new" previously unlisted OO bikes (at or near FMV). As that supply dwindles, that can only lead to higher prices as more and more bikes end up in the hands of collectors, reducing the supply for everyone else.

Yey or ney?
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Old 04-20-17, 09:24 AM   #2
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..
...where I reside, your observation about the high end older bikes showing up less often on CL is more or less true, but I don't see that as leading to higher prices because the user/collector demographic is also aging and disappearing here.

As evidence, the ones I do see here seem to stay on CL a longer time. Certainly they are no more expensively priced.
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Old 04-20-17, 09:29 AM   #3
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I've purchased three original owner bikes with original equipment in the last three years. The Motobecane and De Rosa were garage queens, with low miles. The Merckx had been raced heavily and the original drivetrain was still installed, but completely worn. All three bikes needed serious attention and many parts were replaced. Buying from an original owner reduces some bad repairs done by uninformed owners or mechanics, but it doesn't deliver a showroom condition bike.























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Old 04-20-17, 09:34 AM   #4
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Not a question us poor bike riders dwell on.

Seriously not trying to start something but those of us scrapping by but dedicated to riding nice frames do not moan about. Maybe I speak for one, I don't know...
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Old 04-20-17, 09:46 AM   #5
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Condition of a collectible bike is the primary determinate of value. Condition and collectibility of components is probably 2nd. Original owner documentation may bump the value a bit for some buyers.


There are exceptions: 1. An original owner R.Sachs bike is worth a lot; if the original owner is Mr Sachs himself and this is his first bike, it's worth a lot more. 2. A 'Team bike' may be valuable, a team bike documented to have been 1st ridden by EddyM is worth more.
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Old 04-20-17, 10:39 AM   #6
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I believe there will always be a market for vintage/antique bicycles, regardless of aging demographic.
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Old 04-20-17, 10:54 AM   #7
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I believe there will always be a market for vintage/antique bicycles, regardless of aging demographic.
+1
We are a micro-demographic - behind vintage auto + motor-cycles collectors, probably ahead in numbers of vintage airplane or kayak buffs.


edit: as to value in the future, who knows...
Not really of importance for me.

Last edited by Wildwood; 04-20-17 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 04-20-17, 11:18 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by CampioneDItalia View Post
Soon to be extinct?

Seems locally it's starting to take several weeks to months in between sightings for "new" previously unlisted OO bikes (at or near FMV). As that supply dwindles, that can only lead to higher prices as more and more bikes end up in the hands of collectors, reducing the supply for everyone else.

Yey or ney?
Ney.

I suppose if by "high-end OO" you mean high-end bikes of 1970s-1980s vintage, then it's probably true, since a 24 y/o who bought that great bike in 1972 is getting to an age where they, or their heirs (sadly), will be putting them on the market, and even an OO bike from 1985, bought by a 30 y/o serious rider with the $$ to buy that bike, is maybe looking letting that wall-hanger go to a new home.

I suspect there are very very few OO high-end bikes showing up from the 1950s and earlier, so that's already 'extinct.' And if you're interested in bikes from the 1990s and early 2000s, there doesn't seem to be any extinction coming soon.

If you're talking about ALL steel high-end road bikes, of any era, then there are far far more of those bikes than there are collectors. If anything, the collector market keeps great old bikes from ending up being scrapped or used up by people ignorant of what they have, and the internet means the market for bikes is now close to world wide, so the bikes circulate to those who appreciate them.
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Old 04-20-17, 11:25 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by 3speedslow View Post
not a question us poor bike riders dwell on.

Seriously not trying to start something but those of us scrapping by but dedicated to riding nice frames do not moan about. Maybe i speak for one, i don't know...
+1
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Old 04-20-17, 11:29 AM   #10
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IMO (not that I'm a "collector")

Condition and originality are the important things.

The "original owner" aspect means nothing at all, unless the original owner was/is significant- even then, the provenance is for the ownership by the significant person, not the "original owner."
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Old 04-20-17, 11:30 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CampioneDItalia View Post
Soon to be extinct?

Seems locally it's starting to take several weeks to months in between sightings for "new" previously unlisted OO bikes (at or near FMV). As that supply dwindles, that can only lead to higher prices as more and more bikes end up in the hands of collectors, reducing the supply for everyone else.

Yey or ney?
Yes. Every time another one shows up on the market, another original owner bike dies. Doesn't matter who buys it. As soon as it is purchased, it is no longer has its original owner. So, the problem is us. (And we wouldn't have it any other way. To keep the original owner status bikes intact, they would have to never see the market. In other words, we wouldn't see them, much less be able to buy them.)

Ben
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Old 04-20-17, 05:58 PM   #12
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Classic style hi-end steel frames are still made, Italian and Japanese, aren't they?

If everybody starts selling hi-end old Japanese frames for more than $1,000, you can always order and own a new Japanese frame for your size with your favorite color combination.

Like this $1,300 Panasonic frame.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/100870...7635512517842/

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Old 04-20-17, 06:04 PM   #13
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The "original owner" aspect means nothing at all, unless the original owner was/is significant- even then, the provenance is for the ownership by the significant person, not the "original owner."
^This. An "original owner" bike in poor condition is worth less the a bike in better condition that has been owned by multiple owners if the "original owner" is just an ordinary person.
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Old 04-20-17, 06:49 PM   #14
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It used to be that original paint was important to me. But now the bikes I am most interested in are between 40-60 Years old and finding one with original Paint is rare and usually beyond my budget. So it doesn't bother me so much to do a repaint. I just try to use an original paint scheme when possible.
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Old 04-20-17, 07:12 PM   #15
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To me, finding the "original owner bike" is desirable in that they are usually ridden for a couple of years and then stored the garage for the next 20, 30, 40+ years. Bikes that have been passed around usually don't have the original parts...and in many times, inferior parts as once the bike fell out style, less care and appreciation was placed on the bike. I have found a couple of wonderful, high end one owner bikes in dusty, dirty condition...but intact. Repack the bearings, put new cables on, new tires, brake pads and brakes...and lots of cleaning. ..and you got one sweet ride!
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Old 04-20-17, 09:25 PM   #16
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I think it depends on what you mean when asking about high-quality bikes and original owner, what's the cut-off date for the bikes you consider "high" quality?
If you are thinking 1960-1970 there will probably be quite a few showing up in the next few years as many older riders will be looking down on their stable from above.
So if you are young enough keep looking at CL or the bay, no one lives forever and that is why I have no garage queens....ride it hard and put it away wet.
Enjoy them while you can.
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Old 04-21-17, 01:11 AM   #17
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I bought my '71 Grandis (definitely high end) from the OO who bought it new in '74. I checked in with him by email last fall to let him know how much I was enjoying his old bike. He mentioned in his reply he was struggling with prostate cancer. I'm a bit afraid to check in with him again.

I try not to think of it when I'm riding them, but I have three other very nice (but mid-grade) bikes that I acquired from the immediate heirs of the OOs.

So yes, I think they're a dying breed. As are we all.

I'm with Ben, ride fast while you can.
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Old 04-21-17, 01:49 AM   #18
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What would be of interest is how many people on this forum have bicycles (high quality or grey porridge) that they have owned/built from new(if they've come from a family member that's ok too).

There seem a large majority of ebay/craiglist/other purchases; leads me to believe BF members are, in the main, fairly new to cycling.

Or are these just the musings of an Englishman.

John.
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Old 04-21-17, 02:51 AM   #19
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I suppose I wouldn't be the least concerned about an "original owner" or spouse/heirs. If you're wanting to buy a used bike, then you'll be at least the second or third owner anyway.

What you're really looking for is a bike that an original owner rode for a few days, then put into storage for 30+ years.

I'm technically not the original owner of my old Colnago since it was used when I bought it 35 years ago. But, it is really not what you're looking for. Bought by a teenager. Ridden to high school, college, commuted on, and ridden hard for decades. Parts worn out, replaced, upgraded, etc.

Anyway, at this point, I'd rather see a vintage bike be put up on the market whole. But, there are also significant benefits of buying stripped frames, allowing a little creativity in the build. Perhaps a collector cringes at the word creativity, but I'd rather have a bike that is functionally built to my needs than having all the period correct parts.
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Old 04-21-17, 06:20 AM   #20
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What would be of interest is how many people on this forum have bicycles (high quality or grey porridge) that they have owned/built from new.
I have several, and none have been or will be for sale until part of my estate.

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Old 04-21-17, 06:41 AM   #21
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What would be of interest is how many people on this forum have bicycles (high quality or grey porridge) that they have owned/built from new(if they've come from a family member that's ok too).

There seem a large majority of ebay/craiglist/other purchases; leads me to believe BF members are, in the main, fairly new to cycling.

Or are these just the musings of an Englishman.

John.
I think in general, and we know what that can bring, we have been riding for a good portion of our lives. Some nonstop, others in their childhood and then later in life. Some come to the riding from other athletic sport. We always had a bike. But we did not start COLLECTING them until later. The eBay, CL, advertised, yard sale are the methods we use.

But it is apples to oranges when comparing America to other countries.

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Old 04-21-17, 07:05 AM   #22
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On the supply side it only makes sense that quality original bikes are almost all through at least one resale cycle. The average person is likely to live in the same place for at most 40 years and then the bikes are likely to have been purchased by someone other than the person who owns the home, if the bike hasn't needed an upgrade to more modern components over that time.

So you have decreased odds over time of finding hidden gems. Odds are probably better in areas where storage space is more plentiful like outer suburbs or rural areas (if kept out of the elements)

On the demand side there is no question that the "dress up" events akin to eroica are generating demand from your dentist, plant manager and others with pool tables in their basements and hot tubs on their decks. The seldom used artisan steel bike probably spends most time on the rack while the carbon wonder bike goes on the b group club rides.

Not suggesting that the prior paragraph is bad for long term collectors. You may be able to get great bikes on the cheap eventually from these sources if they don't resell through places like TPC and the bay. One can assume the bay is here to stay but the likes of TPC and budget bike may move along when the current demand fades.
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Old 04-21-17, 07:58 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by hobbs1951 View Post
What would be of interest is how many people on this forum have bicycles (high quality or grey porridge) that they have owned/built from new(if they've come from a family member that's ok too).

There seem a large majority of ebay/craiglist/other purchases; leads me to believe BF members are, in the main, fairly new to cycling.

Or are these just the musings of an Englishman.

John.
That would be me, going back to the late 60's I have every bike I have owned, mainly cheap stuff but once I actually had real jobs I was able to buy better quality. Oh and some parts as well.

The internet changed everything, in the past you could go to a local shop for a sale. Today when there is a good deal it's spread far and wide instantly.

With items for sale once posted online you are attracting a worldwide audience, which could be good or bad depending on whether you also attract scammers.....

Here there is at least one maybe two people who saturate the local online want ads with ads saying they are a collector paying big $$$ for vintage high end bikes. I'm sure that doesn't help, especially if they also spend all day combing the sites for anything new that might pop up and jump in before anyone else has a chance.
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Old 04-21-17, 08:26 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbs1951 View Post
What would be of interest is how many people on this forum have bicycles (high quality or grey porridge) that they have owned/built from new(if they've come from a family member that's ok too).

There seem a large majority of ebay/craiglist/other purchases; leads me to believe BF members are, in the main, fairly new to cycling.

Or are these just the musings of an Englishman.

John.
At the age of 15, I graduated from cutting lawns to start my first real job at George Garner Cyclery in Northbrook, IL. George Garner Cyclery was a performance oriented shop with a large volume of racing bikes sold.

Northbrook has a Velodrome. A wide range of competition road bikes, track bikes and touring bikes were always available to demo. I worked with frame builders & racers including Ron Boi. It was demanding but fun, I was very lucky to be there.

I spent 80% of my summer & weekend income on a Road Race Paramount bicycle: fully lugged, 531 Reynolds tubing, full Campagnolo Record group, wood filled Weinmann tubular rims.

New in 1972, I kept the bike for almost 40 years, but sold it a few years ago. I now have a similar Paramount in a larger size among the multiple steel bikes in my collection.





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Last edited by Barrettscv; 04-21-17 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 04-21-17, 08:27 AM   #25
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I suppose the original owner variety of the bikes we here are interested in will be found more and more rarely, it's unavoidable. Who knows though, maybe in 15-20 years, people will be lusting after original owner Specialized Tarmacs?

I feel like every bike has a story to tell, and that usually remains a mystery, except from the original owner (occasionally second owner) bikes. That is the only real value to me, getting the story behind the bike.

Edit: we posted at same time - See previous post from Barrett. That's the kind of stuff I like to know when I get a new (old bike) - it's only happened a couple of times for me though.
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