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Old 11-20-05, 08:24 AM   #1
lotek
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totally tubular

As suggested by an astute member this will be for
tubular tips, hints, reviews of tires etc.
no sales, trades, wtbs, no runs no hits no errors. . .
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Old 11-20-05, 11:29 AM   #2
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i usta really like the Tubular Bells album...(am I showing my age?)
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Old 11-20-05, 03:12 PM   #3
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Where does the "Continental Giro" tubular stand in the quality/roadability/endurance/etc. ratings? I just bought a couple from my LBS for my Italvega Super Speciale and was kind of wondering. Thanks.
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Old 11-20-05, 04:23 PM   #4
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well, I like 'em okay. The ones that I'm using go in straight and aren't lumpy. But some have complained of these things. I have three sets in service right now. I like sprinters better (one pair) and competitions a lot better (one pair) but cost goes up geometrically...
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Old 11-20-05, 06:59 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luker
i usta really like the Tubular Bells album...(am I showing my age?)
Maybe? It's released on Super Audio Compact Disk(sacd) these days. . .
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Old 11-20-05, 07:27 PM   #6
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Ummm. Too many flats, too long for the glue to dry, too messy.

Solution: Clinchers and a patch kit.

Been there, done that.
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Old 11-20-05, 07:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luker
i usta really like the Tubular Bells album...(am I showing my age?)

I remember them quite well. Good tunes.

* * *
In reference to the preceding comments, I'd just like to post Lotek's words again:


Quote:
Originally Posted by lotek
As suggested by an astute member this will be for
tubular tips, hints, reviews of tires etc.
I just don't see anywhere in there, "Please rain on our parade."

Last edited by peripatetic; 11-20-05 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 11-20-05, 07:56 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peripatetic
I just don't see anywhere in there, "Please rain on our parade."
Ooops! You're absolutely right. Sorry.
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Old 11-20-05, 07:59 PM   #9
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Here are a few things I've learned about preparing tubulars for installation in the past 6-7 months.

When you get them, inflate them to about 40 psi - don't mount them on anything yet.

After a few days (maybe a week), deflate, and mount them on a rim (no glue), and inflate to about 40 psi again.

After another week (although it might be best to just leave them stretched over the rim until you want to glue them), they should be nicely stretched, and quite a bit easier to manage when you do go to glue them on.

Also, a few days before you want to glue them on, put a layer of adhesive onto the rim(s) you're going to mount the tire(s) to.

Unless you're dealing with really old tubulars, I suggest using 3-M Fast Tack for glue. I must say though that I've heard that Fast-Tack can cause the base tape on older tubulars to separate from the tires. I had a pair of old Wolbers that this happened with, but I haven't had it happen on any of the other tires I've used. Anyhow, here's a technique that I've used to mount tires with very little mess. I don't ride very aggressively, so I haven't ridden on any hairy, high-speed descents, so I can't vouch for how this holds under those conditions.

Before you start, have some mineral spirits and a clean cloth rag at hand. Sit in a plastic chair in a clean well ventilated space, and put on vinyl or latex gloves - the very thin ones. Deflate the tire, put the stem of the tire into the hole in the rim. Make sure you have the tire oriented the way you want it. Once the tire is on the rim, sit in the chair, hold the rim with the stem up. Grasp the tire about one spoke hole away from the stem and lift it up. Squeeze a bit of glue onto the exposed sections of the rim. Move the glue tube around to get a light coating on the entire surface. Release the tire, being certain that the base tape is centered, rotate the rim two spoke holes, and repeat the process. Do this until you make it back to the stem.

If you get any glue on the tire, rim, spokes or yourself, wipe it off immediately. Use mineral spirits as necessary to clean the glue from any metal that it gets on.

Once you've completed the gluing, inflate to about 25 psi. If any glue oozes onto the tire or rim, wipe it off immediately. Also make any manipulations you may want to center the tire if it hasn't gone on quite as straight as you want. You may need to decrease the pressure in the tire to do this. After 30 minutes, inflate the tire to about 40 psi and let the rim sit over night. I've had no problems riding on the tires the next day.
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Old 11-20-05, 09:43 PM   #10
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The Tubular Tire gluing process is simple.

Vittoria Mastik One adhesive is preferred and proven.

Use a Plumber's Flux Brush(.25 cents) to brush the glue onto the Rim and Tire.

Let dry to a tack(about 20 minutes)

Assemble the tire and rim.

The glue should be applied to the carried spare tubular tire so that it will be ready if needed.

No Mess. . .

I have never in many years had a tire seperate from the rim during recreational/club riding.

Consider This:

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.19.html

Last edited by wildjim; 11-21-05 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 11-20-05, 10:56 PM   #11
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I had a friend of mine give me some Clement "Futurox" and "Ventoux" tubulars in exchange for doing some work on his bike. I'm thinking of putting these on my Campy Record/Fiamme rims. I know these aren't high end tires but which ones? And why? Thanks.
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Old 11-21-05, 12:01 AM   #12
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3M Fast-tak is good. The reputation that it causes the base tape to separate is that often upon removal the base tape is bonded to the rim more effectively than the tire. Be sure to use the #8031, not #8001. the 001 stuff dries brittle.

The Vittoria glue is the best current stuff I have found for road use as it will retack a spare whearas Fast-tak will not. Of course the old Clement Gutta, the red stuff, was great, but it is long gone now. NOS stuff that shows up on ebay is too old for me to trust.
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Old 11-21-05, 12:05 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildjim
The spare tubular tire should also be pre-glued.
Wildjim, what do you mean here? The spare that would be used to replace a flat?

* * *

I just realized that along with this wheelset this guy gave me, he also included a pair of used but still-in-decent-shape Wenkobar tires. The tread's completely unscathed, so it looks like the tires are just a little dirty, probably from storage. Anyone know anything about these?
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Old 11-21-05, 12:24 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peripatetic
Wildjim, what do you mean here? The spare that would be used to replace a flat?

* * *

I just realized that along with this wheelset this guy gave me, he also included a pair of used but still-in-decent-shape Wenkobar tires. The tread's completely unscathed, so it looks like the tires are just a little dirty, probably from storage. Anyone know anything about these?
exactly
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Old 11-21-05, 11:54 AM   #15
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If you don't have a flux brush handy a plastic bag will do to
apply glue in a pinch.
I've used the Conti glue with sucess, the LBS now has
panaracer and Hutchinson glue but I have no experience
with them.
A word on Tufo gluing tape.
I have to admit that I have used it, the normal one not the extreme tape.
I had no problem riding it, even in texas heat. I sometimes kept my bike
(and obviously tires) in my car where it got quite warm. The glue did
soften but not to the point where I felt it unsafe to ride.
The Tufo tape is very easy to use, and makes for an easy
introduction to tubulars.
I had the oppertunity to change one of the tires recently (sprinter
with enough wear that it was unsafe). Removing the tire was no more
difficult than a tubular glued with mastik or any other glue.
There was significant sticky residue left on the rims that cleaned
up (with a little difficulty) with goo gone (or goof off).

Marty
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Old 11-21-05, 12:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USAZorro
Here are a few things I've learned about preparing tubulars for installation in the past 6-7 months.

When you get them, inflate them to about 40 psi - don't mount them on anything yet.

After a few days (maybe a week), deflate, and mount them on a rim (no glue), and inflate to about 40 psi again.

After another week (although it might be best to just leave them stretched over the rim until you want to glue them), they should be nicely stretched, and quite a bit easier to manage when you do go to glue them on.

Also, a few days before you want to glue them on, put a layer of adhesive onto the rim(s) you're going to mount the tire(s) to.

Unless you're dealing with really old tubulars, I suggest using 3-M Fast Tack for glue. I must say though that I've heard that Fast-Tack can cause the base tape on older tubulars to separate from the tires. I had a pair of old Wolbers that this happened with, but I haven't had it happen on any of the other tires I've used. Anyhow, here's a technique that I've used to mount tires with very little mess. I don't ride very aggressively, so I haven't ridden on any hairy, high-speed descents, so I can't vouch for how this holds under those conditions.

Before you start, have some mineral spirits and a clean cloth rag at hand. Sit in a plastic chair in a clean well ventilated space, and put on vinyl or latex gloves - the very thin ones. Deflate the tire, put the stem of the tire into the hole in the rim. Make sure you have the tire oriented the way you want it. Once the tire is on the rim, sit in the chair, hold the rim with the stem up. Grasp the tire about one spoke hole away from the stem and lift it up. Squeeze a bit of glue onto the exposed sections of the rim. Move the glue tube around to get a light coating on the entire surface. Release the tire, being certain that the base tape is centered, rotate the rim two spoke holes, and repeat the process. Do this until you make it back to the stem.

If you get any glue on the tire, rim, spokes or yourself, wipe it off immediately. Use mineral spirits as necessary to clean the glue from any metal that it gets on.

Once you've completed the gluing, inflate to about 25 psi. If any glue oozes onto the tire or rim, wipe it off immediately. Also make any manipulations you may want to center the tire if it hasn't gone on quite as straight as you want. You may need to decrease the pressure in the tire to do this. After 30 minutes, inflate the tire to about 40 psi and let the rim sit over night. I've had no problems riding on the tires the next day.
My technique.

1. Stretch the tire. Ideally, put it on the rim and inflate to max pressure and leave it for 1 week. If its 8pm and you need to race on it the next morning, try this. With no air in it, try to get the tire to stretch onto the rim without too much resitance. It should go on snug but easily by hand, you shouldn't need a pry bar/ tire remover to get it on. If it goes on, good, proceed to step 2. If not, sit in a chair grab one end of the tire with both hands, hook the other end under your feet and progressively apply pressure to stretch the tire. Go slowly but you will likely have to apply a lot of force to stretch, just don't go ape and rip the tire apart. Stretch until it goes on just snug, but easily.

2. Prepare the rim. Rough up the rim with a wire brush or coarse grit sandpaper. Clean meticulously with brake parts cleaner. Put masking tape on the side of the rim where the brakes pads make contact. This will save at least minutes, if not hours, of cleaning and recleaning to get glue off the sides of the rims.

3. Apply the glue. ****** up both the rim and the tire and don't skimp on the glue! Hang them both up to dry overnight.

4. Put the tire on the rim. The glue is contact cement, so remember, once you touch the parts together they STICK. Put just enough air in the tire so it barely holds its shape, put the valve in the rim. With the valve at 12 oclock, put the rim on the floor perpendicular to the floor. Grab the tire with both hands, each hand about 1 foot from the valve. Now pull the tire apart and simultaneously push down and place the tire on the rim. The idea is to stretch it is much as possible before you put it on the rim. Repeat until you get about 1/2 way around the tire, flip the tire over and continue on the other side, it gets easier now, because you can hold the wheel with your foot while you pull on the tire to stretch it as you put it on the rim. Quickly straighten the tire on the rim. There should be a bead of glue between the tape on the tire and the rim. Remove masking tape.

5. Test your handiwork. Inflate to max. pressure. Try as hard as you can to roll the tire off the rim with your thumbs. The tire should not move at all and the tire tape should not come even slightly unglued from the rim. If this is so, go out and ride/race! If not, let it dry some more overnight and check in the morning. Hey, the masking tape works, doesn't it? No grabby brakes, no squeal.
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Old 11-21-05, 12:19 PM   #17
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Nice tip on the masking tape on the rim.

I have a set of rims, undrilled that I use to stretch tires.
I mount the tires, and pump up to running pressure then
leave em hanging about a week. after that they are fine.

The onlything I would add to your instructions is to center the tires
prior to pumping them up to max pressure

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Old 11-21-05, 12:37 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peripatetic
Wildjim, what do you mean here? The spare that would be used to replace a flat?
* * *
I just realized that along with this wheelset this guy gave me, he also included a pair of used but still-in-decent-shape Wenkobar tires. The tread's completely unscathed, so it looks like the tires are just a little dirty, probably from storage. Anyone know anything about these?
re Wildjim's - 'pre-glue' - the spare I usually take along is a prior used tire that is serviceable (and was prolly used). I'm not sure what you mean by pre-glued, otherwise. On the road, and replacing a 'flat' usually means I'm just slipping the spare on the rim and riding it that way. As a long time user of Tubasti and Clement, I've found that both remain suffcient tacky to be able to ride on the spare for considerable distances as long as I don't try to 'rail' corners or turns...
I re-glue tires at least 2x a year...
Pre-glue? Clue me in, pls...
Tubasti was hellacious stuff, and the worst if you botched the jo, but also the most tenaciously tacky for the long term.
I seem to only be able to buy Continental around here, and have not built any confidence in it yet... - goes on much to cleanly...

peripatetic - the idea is to have a spare 'folded' and carried under the seat. Can be done just with a 'spare' toestrap (for the toeclippy guyz) or carried in a tire sock, which was the ancestor of the current miniseatpacks. Course you can add all your other emergency goodies as well. Longer than the current seatpack, these socks allow you to fold the spare into about a 6 inch length. There is a 'special' way to 'fold' the spare to reduce creases and also safeguard the valve area. If anyone has a good pic of this folding, they should post it - otherwise I'll pop my spare out this eve and post a pic of the fold.

Finally - went to nashbar site this weekend. Noticed that the Clement Criteriums were on sale for $50, down from $80. Now that may not seem like a great price, but they are considered by many, to be the ultimate medium-MDlite weight performance tire. These being cotton crits, not the setas. And as a point of comparo, they sold in the mid $30s (bestest price...) in the early 80s. These are 230 gram (consider that this is both TIRE and TUBE wt.) Were prolly the most used tire in the Pro Peleton, and may still be. Team Disco still uses tubulars, and I imagine that many, maybe most, of the other teams are also on sewups. These used to be with latex tubes, which are the ultimate in ride/performance but do lose air quicker than butyl. Meaning that over a period of a couple of days you'll notice a softening - not a flaw, just the nature of latex. They would 'ride' well for any ultra-long day ride though.
After riding I would bring these 'down' to 'lightly firm' pressure anyway and pump up again before using. This is another Old-Guyz thing that I was taught, but seems to have no real basis in fact. The Olde Italian Guyz (they may not all have been Eyetalian either...) would tell us Yutz to 'air them down' after racing...

So at $50, these Clements Crits are a good value.
Wish I hadn't spend so much money fixing the 7 odd bikes I've rejuvenated these past months... I'll just hope they do this price again sometime in early '06, so I can stock up on 4 or so.
These are Blackwall! so not likely to be the call for a real 'vintage' look.

Mhendricks - the Ventoux is also listed at $55 reg and down to $40 - so prolly a quite good tire.
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Old 11-21-05, 04:43 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclezen
re Wildjim's - 'pre-glue' - the spare I usually take along is a prior used tire that is serviceable (and was prolly used). I'm not sure what you mean by pre-glued, otherwise. On the road, and replacing a 'flat' usually means I'm just slipping the spare on the rim and riding it that way. As a long time user of Tubasti and Clement, I've found that both remain suffcient tacky to be able to ride on the spare for considerable distances as long as I don't try to 'rail' corners or turns...
I re-glue tires at least 2x a year...
Pre-glue? Clue me in, pls...
Tubasti was hellacious stuff, and the worst if you botched the jo, but also the most tenaciously tacky for the long term.
I seem to only be able to buy Continental around here, and have not built any confidence in it yet... - goes on much to cleanly...

peripatetic - the idea is to have a spare 'folded' and carried under the seat. Can be done just with a 'spare' toestrap (for the toeclippy guyz) or carried in a tire sock, which was the ancestor of the current miniseatpacks. Course you can add all your other emergency goodies as well. Longer than the current seatpack, these socks allow you to fold the spare into about a 6 inch length. There is a 'special' way to 'fold' the spare to reduce creases and also safeguard the valve area. If anyone has a good pic of this folding, they should post it - otherwise I'll pop my spare out this eve and post a pic of the fold.

Finally - went to nashbar site this weekend. Noticed that the Clement Criteriums were on sale for $50, down from $80. Now that may not seem like a great price, but they are considered by many, to be the ultimate medium-MDlite weight performance tire. These being cotton crits, not the setas. And as a point of comparo, they sold in the mid $30s (bestest price...) in the early 80s. These are 230 gram (consider that this is both TIRE and TUBE wt.) Were prolly the most used tire in the Pro Peleton, and may still be. Team Disco still uses tubulars, and I imagine that many, maybe most, of the other teams are also on sewups. These used to be with latex tubes, which are the ultimate in ride/performance but do lose air quicker than butyl. Meaning that over a period of a couple of days you'll notice a softening - not a flaw, just the nature of latex. They would 'ride' well for any ultra-long day ride though.
After riding I would bring these 'down' to 'lightly firm' pressure anyway and pump up again before using. This is another Old-Guyz thing that I was taught, but seems to have no real basis in fact. The Olde Italian Guyz (they may not all have been Eyetalian either...) would tell us Yutz to 'air them down' after racing...

So at $50, these Clements Crits are a good value.
Wish I hadn't spend so much money fixing the 7 odd bikes I've rejuvenated these past months... I'll just hope they do this price again sometime in early '06, so I can stock up on 4 or so.
These are Blackwall! so not likely to be the call for a real 'vintage' look.

Mhendricks - the Ventoux is also listed at $55 reg and down to $40 - so prolly a quite good tire.
Perhaps the term "pre-glue" the spare tubular tire is incorrect or difficult to understand if you have not ridden tubular tires?

But just apply glue to the carried spare tubular tire so that it functions properly if needed. As the proper glue does not dry hard and is actually functions as contact cement.
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Old 11-21-05, 10:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildjim
Perhaps the term "pre-glue" the spare tubular tire is incorrect or difficult to understand if you have not ridden tubular tires?
But just apply glue to the carried spare tubular tire so that it functions properly if needed. As the proper glue does not dry hard and is actually functions as contact cement.
ouch... didn't mean to DIS you wildjim, was just wonderin what you meant...
one could say my spares are 'preglued' since they are well-serviced 'remainders'.
using sewups is a little 'ritualistic', and we all have our own little rituals, don;t we...
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Old 11-21-05, 10:54 PM   #21
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Old toothbrushes have a second life as glue spreaders.
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Old 11-22-05, 07:39 AM   #22
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ouch... didn't mean to DIS you wildjim, was just wonderin what you meant...
one could say my spares are 'preglued' since they are well-serviced 'remainders'.
using sewups is a little 'ritualistic', and we all have our own little rituals, don;t we...
No problem. It's just that I seem to be repeating myself and I only wish to share some things I've learned.

I also use old wore tubular tires for spares; but that practice got me into some trouble once as the spare had a slow leak and I had to stop every mile or so and hand pump the tire to get home. Not fun. . .

I really like tubular tires and they are really no trouble or mess to mount if done properly. The main problem I see is that if you have two flats in one day then you may find yourself sewing at the road side or walking some distance.

You could also carry more than one spare but that seems impractical.

If I were totally devoted to tubular tires I would carry two spares one under the seat and one in my messenger bag. I may be talking myself into this again.

Can you tell that I seem to get my share of punctures. . .

Also good luck with your Titan. The first ride on my first Titan I used a Mavic Reflex wheelset and Continental Sprinters inflated to 110 lbs. air pressure. It was a nice ride as I still remember the ride even today.

Last edited by wildjim; 11-22-05 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 11-22-05, 09:16 AM   #23
lotek
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wildjim,

If your are messing in Baltimore I might choose a heavier tire than the
sprinters.
I think the Tufo Elite is pretty good, however they are not repairable
so the idea of sewing by the side of the road isn't an option.
I don't like the tufo sealant, leaks at about 90 psi. I've been using
Rock n' Roll Tube Spooge. similiar stuff but will not ooze out up till
about 115psi (reported, I haven't needed it).
They are mountable with regular glue, just scrape the basetape a little
to remove the sealant (like the veloflex tubulars).

come on, you know you want to do it.
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Old 11-22-05, 09:44 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotek
wildjim,

If your are messing in Baltimore I might choose a heavier tire than the
sprinters.
I think the Tufo Elite is pretty good, however they are not repairable
so the idea of sewing by the side of the road isn't an option.
I don't like the tufo sealant, leaks at about 90 psi. I've been using
Rock n' Roll Tube Spooge. similiar stuff but will not ooze out up till
about 115psi (reported, I haven't needed it).
They are mountable with regular glue, just scrape the basetape a little
to remove the sealant (like the veloflex tubulars).

come on, you know you want to do it.
I have not tried Tufo tubular tires.

I prefer the Vittoria cx tires but they seem to get the most punctures; but that may be just because I've ridden them more than any others. Also the top of the line tubulars usually have latex tubes; which loose air and require much more tire inflation maintenance.

I've switched to Continental Sprinter and Challenge training tires as they have butyl tubes and the tread seems very durable.

Last edited by wildjim; 11-22-05 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 11-22-05, 09:56 AM   #25
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for me it depends on where I'm riding.
Around work (lunch rides) some of the roads
are horrid with debris, potholes etc. I wouldn't
put lightweight tires on that surface, nor some
of the really bad chip and seal on the FM roads.
The Tufo seems to be a robust tire, more like the
training tires of old.
I really prefer Conti Competitions, or Sprinters
if I'm going on mixed good and bad roads.
I've heard really good things about DedaTre
tubulars but can't find em anywhere (except
business cycles in Miami) to check them out
before buying. Might have to go out on a limb
and get a pair online .

marty
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