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  1. #1
    Freewheel Medic pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
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    Regina Freewheel on a Paramount Questions?

    I will begin rebuilding my 1966 Paramount P-13 in June. I plan to send my high flange Campagnolo hubs and rims off to Yellow Jersey to build two sets of wheels; 700c tubulars and 27 X 1 inch clinchers. I will use Regina 6 speed freewheels. The rear wheels will need to be dished to the 120 mm rear dropout spacing and all four built to accommodate my extra heft.

    I have a couple questions about the Regina freewheels (13-23 & 13-31 teeth). Should I send them with the rims and hubs in order to assure that the spacing and dishing is done correctly? Can they be disassembled (i.e. take the cogs off the FW body) to make cleaning the individual cogs easier? (The 13 tooth cog on the larger one looks as if it unthreads. It's harder to tell on the smaller one.)

    BTW, I plan to use the 13-23 on the tubulars and the 13-31 on clinchers. I will probably ride the clinchers (which are alloy Arayas- late 70s vintage) most of the time here in NH. I have a Campagnola Rally RD to accommodate the 31 tooth cog and a Sugino 52/38 crankset to make the P-13 more hill friendly. I still have the original Campagnolo Nuovo Record crankset (52/49) and the Nuovo Record RD. The original crankset is 151 bcd and the smallest chainring ever made was either a 44 or 45 tooth. A 46 tooth is currently on ebay and is located in Belgium. This is the smallest I've seen in the past 6 months.

    One final set of questions: I also need advise on the rear dropout adjusting screws. Which way do they insert? From the rear or from inside? Caps on the inside or outside? Is the spring on the outside?

    Thanks for your help.

    Bob
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  2. #2
    Crawlin' up, flyin' down bikingshearer's Avatar
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    I would think that a pro wheelbuilder wouldn't need to have the freewheel, just the same info you gave here. SInce you have some time, though, why not ask them to be sure?

    I know it is possible to take cogs off of freewheels, but I always thought it was far more trouble that it was worth. This is based on having seen diagrams and explanations many moons ago. (I now expect to see someone responding that it is easy as pie to pull cogs off a Regina freewheel. Well, maybe for them . . . . )

    As for the limit screws in the rear drop outs - caps and screws both go on the outside.

    Congrats on building up that Paramount frame. I am now on a 1967 P-15, and I absolutely love it. Yours is going to be a lot more period correct than mine, but the sweet ride will be the same.

  3. #3
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
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    Bob,

    Although it's probably not required for the wheelbuilder to have the freewheels for properly dishing the wheels, unless you're concerned about Yellow Jersey losing or damaging them, I think I'd ship them with the hubs and rims (being very careful to explain which freewheel goes with which hub/rim) so they'll have them IF they need them for some reason.

    Freewheels can be disassembled, but both Sheldon Brown and Lennard Zinn recommend against doing it. Removing the cogs requires two sprocket tools, chain whips, or cog removal tools, and it's difficult to get all of the cogs off of the freewheel cluster body at the same time without a special vise. Sheldon explains that the freewheel bearing turns only when it isn't under load, so servicing it is rarely necessary and more trouble than it's worth.

    I'm not positive, but I think the early Regina freewheels use all threaded sprockets with the largest cogs using left hand threading and having to be removed from the wide end of the freewheel, while the smaller cogs are removed from the outside using normal right hand threading.

    According to Zinn, the easiest and quickest way to clean rear cogs is to simply slide a clean rag back and forth between each pair of cogs while they are on the hub. If the bike has been really neglected, remove the freewheel from the hub and wipe them off with a rag or immerse them in solvent. If you use solvent, dry completely with compressed air before lubricating. Lubricating freewheels is done with a high quality oil, not grease.

    The attached exploded view of the freewheel should give you an idea of how it is assembled.

    Regarding the dropout adjusting screws, both of my Paramounts have the screws from the rear with the springs on the inside (photo attached).

    Good luck with your project. Lots of us are following your progress and experiencing it vicariously through your progress reports and questions.
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    Last edited by Scooper; 05-14-06 at 01:21 PM.
    - Stan

  4. #4
    Chrome Freak Rabid Koala's Avatar
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    Pastor Bob-

    I have ignored the advice and opened and cleaned many a freewheel. I have less often taken the cogs off of one. It isn't as bad as Sheldon Brown says it is. I do have a collection of spare bearings because it is inevitable that I will lose one or two in the process. I use a light coating of Phil Wood grease to hold the bearings in during assembly, and some light oil on the freewheel pawls. One advantage of taking it apart is it allows me to submerge the cogs in carburetor cleaner (not for gold ones!) or solvent to get all the grime out of them.

    I wouldn't do it for routine maintenance, as Scooper said, because they bearings aren't terribly stressed. I will usually do it when I get a new used one and want to clean and inspect it prior to riding on it.

    I guess I do it from habit. As a kid, I would disassemble the things with a hammer and screwdriver due to lack of proper tools and good sense. It is a lot easier doing it with the right tools!

    Good luck!

  5. #5
    Gone, but not forgotten Sheldon Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh
    I will begin rebuilding my 1966 Paramount P-13 in June. I plan to send my high flange Campagnolo hubs and rims off to Yellow Jersey to build two sets of wheels; 700c tubulars and 27 X 1 inch clinchers. I will use Regina 6 speed freewheels. The rear wheels will need to be dished to the 120 mm rear dropout spacing and all four built to accommodate my extra heft.

    One final set of questions: I also need advise on the rear dropout adjusting screws. Which way do they insert? From the rear or from inside? Caps on the inside or outside? Is the spring on the outside?
    Regular width 6-speeds don't work with 120 mm spacing. Standard spacing for use with those is 126.5 mm.

    See: http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing

    The adjuster screws screw in from the front, so the screwdriver slot is what the axle bumps up against. The knurled knob sticks out the back of the dropout.

    Sheldon "Converted My '61 Paramount To Fixed Gear" Brown
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  6. #6
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon Brown
    The adjuster screws screw in from the front, so the screwdriver slot is what the axle bumps up against. The knurled knob sticks out the back of the dropout.
    Ah Ha! That makes more sense. I should have looked a little closer.
    - Stan

  7. #7
    juneeaa memba!
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    back when i was an obsessive/compulsive roadie, I would agonize over just the right mix on a freewheel, and so usually custom built at least one or two stacks a month, depending on the race courses coming up. many more cogs solved that obsession for me, but I still have stacks of cogs for freewheels.

    The outer one or two cogs are right hand threaded on typical regina freewheels. You need two chain whips or a freewheel vice and one chain whip to get 'em off. Without a freewheel vice, it is best to remove 'em while still held on the bike (you ride, you tighten. You sprint, well, you almost weld 'em together). A long extension pipe on the unscrewing chainwhip makes everything a lot easier.

  8. #8
    Freewheel Medic pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
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    Thanks All!

    Scooper I appreciate the advice and the picture and diagram. And to receive direction from the bike god himself, Sheldon Brown, is quite a priviledge! Thanks Rabid for the confidence to suggest taking the freewheel mechanism apart. I was actually just considering removing the cogs on the silver Regina in order to clean between them. It has been around on a self for 15 or more years and has some hardened chain/lube/grime between the cogs that will be easier to remove once apart. The gold one came my way thanks to Kurt, aka cudak888, who found it in a Miami LBS for $40. It looks to be NOS other than a few stains. And bikingshearer, I will check with Yellow Jersey before I send the rims and hubs to find if they want the freewheels.

    I am a little confussed about the 6 speed and rear spacing. I've measured my Paramount at 120-121 mm. I have a set of Schwinn Le Tour wheels (early 80s vintage) that has a Shimano UniGlide six speed cassette. The UG rear wheel fits perfectly on my Paramount. The 6 speed UG cassette is the same width as the Regina six speed. I have to admit that while I've put the wheels on the Paramount, I have never ridden it. I just tried it for sizing (see the attic pictures). Am I missing something? Or will a six speed be too much dishing? I use the Le Tour wheels on my '79 Schwinn Traveler and they ride very well. Thanks for more advice.

    Bob
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  9. #9
    juneeaa memba!
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    If the wheel fits...whirl it!

    If the wheel is 120 old and the frame is 120, then it will fit swell. The bike originally had a five-speed cogset on it, but unless you are looking for eternal cadence/terrain mismatch, then a five-speed ain't gonna do. Dishing shouldn't be an issue - the dishing in the wheelset that you are trying out is the dishing the design engineer was after.

  10. #10
    Freewheel Medic pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
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    luker,

    Thanks for the encouragement. Any idea why Swami Sheldon Brown said a six speed freewheel won't work in 120 spacing?
    Bob
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  11. #11
    juneeaa memba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh
    luker,

    Thanks for the encouragement. Any idea why Swami Sheldon Brown said a six speed freewheel won't work in 120 spacing?
    I also thought that you couldn't use a six speed freewheel on a 120 axle, but you are holding the evidence in your arms, and so there you be! Suntour made a narrow 6 that fit in the space of a 5, but you said you tested two different freewheels.

    It is really no big deal to put a 126 into a 120 space. Also no big deal to put a 130 axle (126 OLD) into an older hub...dish only loses 3 mm, so there is great flexibility between 120 setups and 126 setups (the difference being about one wheel washer moved from one side to the other). It may also be that the frame was set for 126 at some time in the past...did you measure that dimension?

    If the wheel doesn't just fall in the wheel is probably a 126.

  12. #12
    Freewheel Medic pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
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    I'll re-measure the dropout, the Le Tour rear wheel, the Reginas, and the height of the UG cassette (I have a cheep UG 6 speed I scavaged at the dump) later today. Do you think Yellow Jersey is going to baulk at 6 speeds on a 120 mm spacing? I checked into Harris building my wheels (about 80 miles from here), but they will not use old rims. There's a wheel builder not far from me, Peter White (about 20 miles), he will not use old hubs nor rims , not even the HF Campys I'm using.

    Wheels for vintage bicycles can be a real challenge. Before I work on another restoration, I think I'll teach myself how to build wheels. I've been finding old high flange "Schwinn Approved" hubs laced to steel rims at the dump. The hubs are not too bad looking--- and perfect to practice on.
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  13. #13
    Yet another vegan biker
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    Wheels for vintage bicycles can be a real challenge. Before I work on another restoration, I think I'll teach myself how to build wheels. I've been finding old high flange "Schwinn Approved" hubs laced to steel rims at the dump. The hubs are not too bad looking--- and perfect to practice on.
    Pastor Bob,

    I did the same thing last year. I had an beautiful set of Miche hubs tied to horribly mangled rims.


    I bought some new rims and spokes -I got the spoke size wrong the first time and had to get 2mm smaller. I then used Sheldon's site and this site : http://bikewebsite.com/build.htm#Building for instructions.

    Though it took me at least 4 hours to lace and true the wheels, they came out perfect and have remained true for the last year.

    My subsequent tries were with used rims and it was much more difficult to get a true wheel.

  14. #14
    Seņor Member USAZorro's Avatar
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    There's a difference between a six speed freewheel (126mm) and a compact 6 (which will work with 120mm). SunTour made compact 6's, and some others may have also.
    The search for inner peace continues...

  15. #15
    Chrome Freak Rabid Koala's Avatar
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    I have built a few wheels now and am slow but more confident. I had a nice set of Mavic rims that had Triomphe or Victory hubs. I took the wheels apart one at a time, one spoke at a time and relaced them using the existing spokes with Super Record hubs. They are great and I have had no problems.

    Building wheels is, or was, one of my unresolved childhood issues. I could never do it as a kid. I did build one, a steel rim wheel for a cheap Gitane when I worked at a LBS, but never more than that. So, it became a personal challenge.

    I have also built a pair of Weinmann Concave rims with Campy large flange Record hubs. I had the LBS, a nice and patient one, measure the rims and calculate the spoke lengths. It all went without a problem.

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    Yet another vegan biker
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    I have built a few wheels now and am slow but more confident.
    Yes! That "4 hours" I mentioned was for each wheel. LOL!

  17. #17
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    Sheldon is correct, a normal six speed freewheel will not fit. The example you are using is an early Shimano freehub. This freehub could squeeze six cogs into the same 120 frame spacing that was standard at the time.
    You can still build the wheels up for normal six speed but your hubs may need longer axles and possibly longer quick release skewers. If anyone has converted a Campy Record to 126 without having to change them please jump in with some reassurance.

    You also don't have to change your frame spacing if you're willing to spread the dropouts slightly with your thumbs when putting the wheel in. It's pretty easy.
    Some find it too annoying.

  18. #18
    Freewheel Medic pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKahrl
    Sheldon is correct, a normal six speed freewheel will not fit. The example you are using is an early Shimano freehub. This freehub could squeeze six cogs into the same 120 frame spacing that was standard at the time.
    You can still build the wheels up for normal six speed but your hubs may need longer axles and possibly longer quick release skewers. If anyone has converted a Campy Record to 126 without having to change them please jump in with some reassurance.

    You also don't have to change your frame spacing if you're willing to spread the dropouts slightly with your thumbs when putting the wheel in. It's pretty easy.
    Some find it too annoying.
    Is there a reason that 6 speed freewheels don't work other than their simularity in size, i.e. stack height. As you can see there can't be more than 1-2 mm difference between the slighty taller Regina and a Shimano UniGlide cassette. Look at the pictures. The Regina is in the first photo and then the UG is always on the left and the Regina on the right.

    As always, thanks for the help.
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    Regarding 6 cogs in the space of 5.

    The early attached image shows two different generations of Regina freewheel, a "classic" (by dimension) Oro and a much later unit. cog spacing might be different, Older Regina's were flush on the hub side, I do not remember the specifics of the later ones. It was not stated but, the test fit of the Shimano freewheel and wheel was perhaps done without a chain, the COGS may fit, the CHAIN on the cogs may not and there must be space for the chain to derail above the small cog. Chainline may also be off using a 6 on a 5, the cetral space between the chain rings should fall at the center of the freewheel. A straight Framing Square can be used in a pinch for review.

    Typical Campagnolo 120mm hubs will NOT handle a standard 6, if the hubs have been toyed with, who knows.

  20. #20
    Freewheel Medic pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
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    So--- any one in the market for six speed Regina freewheels? Interestingly, one of my rear HF Campy hubs is spaced at 120 mm and slides into the frame perfectly. The other hub is spaced at 126 and I haven't wanted to spread the frame to make it fit (the Paramount is very stiff in the seat and chain stays). When I bought the bike the previous owner sent two Reginas, a 5 and a 6. I've just assumed all along that if I could find a second 6 speed Regina, I could set up both wheels as 6s and would have fewer adjustments when switching wheels. So, as they say, back to the drawing board.

    Dare I use the new Shimano 5 speed freewheels which are ramped like the HyperGlide cassettes?
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  21. #21
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh
    I will use Regina 6 speed freewheels. The rear wheels will need to be dished to the 120 mm rear dropout spacing and all four built to accommodate my extra heft.

    >>First, it may not be possible to keep your 120 mm spacing if you're going for 6 speed freewheels. Unless they are narrow-spaced (unlikely for Regina), you will need to go to a 126 mm spacing both on the hub over-locknut-distance and on the frame. Adjusting the hub is a matter of fitting a new axle and some spacers and then dishing properly, and adjusting the frame is a bending/alignment process called cold-setting. I know some of us DIY-ers can cold-set, but I like to have it done by a good pro. Bottom line is Yellow Jersey might be best off having your whole bike in order to get this set right.

    >>Second, you're wheel plan is for interchangable wheelsets, but you are planning two different diameters, 622 and 630. You'll have to adjust all four brake shoes by about 4 mm each time you swap wheels. If I was looking for a "fast wheel/robust wheel" combo, I'd at least keep both pairs 700C. Then at least the brake shoe positions do not need to be adjusted.

    I have a couple questions about the Regina freewheels (13-23 & 13-31 teeth). Should I send them with the rims and hubs in order to assure that the spacing and dishing is done correctly? Can they be disassembled (i.e. take the cogs off the FW body) to make cleaning the individual cogs easier?

    >>If the cogs are on a wheel you can clean down in between with a strip of rag from an old T-shirt. It slips down in between, and you just pull it back and forth like a two-ended lumberjack saw.

    One final set of questions: I also need advise on the rear dropout adjusting screws. Which way do they insert? From the rear or from inside? Caps on the inside or outside? Is the spring on the outside?

    >>The screw starts on the side inside the dropout slot. The spring is caught under the screw head. The endcaps go on the outside end. Use Locktite (the locking kind, ask your hardware store) to secure the endcap to the screw end. The flat screw head bears against the axle to act as a variable stop, the knurled endcap is a hand adjuster, and the spring serves to hold the screw in place once it's adjusted. You use it to align the rear wheel so it spins in the central plane of the bike and does not introduce a lateral bias to the bike's travel.

    >>If you end up sending the whole bike to Yellow Jersey, have them check the frame alignment. I've found that nothing helps make a newly rebuilt vintage bike feel right like frame alignment. Then your adjusters, brakes, and everything else will line up and track as the old Schwinn elves intended.

    Thanks for your help.

    Bob
    You're welcome!!

    Ken Freeman

  22. #22
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh
    luker,

    Thanks for the encouragement. Any idea why Swami Sheldon Brown said a six speed freewheel won't work in 120 spacing?
    There are two types of 6-speeds: the Ultra (named by SunTour when they came out with it) and standard. The Ultra has the cogs narrow-spaced so that a bike designed for conventional 5-speed, with 120mm hubs and frame, could be sold as a 12-speed "fer free." Shimano didn't readily embrace this new strategy. Narrow 6s have a reputation for worse shifting than standard-spaced 6s. Standard 6s need a wider hub and frame to make sure the chain doesn't rub against the frame when in the smallest cog. My bikes all have 126 spacing and will all accept a standard 6 very well.

    I could easily see the 120 wheel with a standard 6 slipping into the frame and spinning, but did you try it with the chain, pedaling hard in top gear (big/small)? This is the condition that precipitates frame rub on my 7-speed (narrow-spaced) 126 setup. The same bike works right with a standard 6. Basically, the freewheel fitment is not right until it works on the road under load, not on the repair stand. This all assumes you are not going to increase dish. You said you are concerned about wheel strength, so I think you should not increase wheel dish.

    This is my experience, assisted with the info on the Sheldon site, and Frank Berto's great old book on upgrades. If you end up with not enough frame spacing, the only problem is you'll have to start over to eliminate the chain sawing at your frame. On a collectible Paramount, I would not take the chance.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    I'd be interested in the Regina 6s, if you really don't want to have the frame spread. My fleet of 126-spaced bikes needs help in dragging their sorry butts (actually my sorry and ample butt!!) up the hills. Feel free to contact me back-channel if you like.

    Ken Freeman

  24. #24
    Gone, but not forgotten Sheldon Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh
    Dare I use the new Shimano 5 speed freewheels which are ramped like the HyperGlide cassettes?
    Highly recommended, they shift much better than the old Regina stuff, though there are no Hyperglide 5-speeds as far as I know.

    Back in the day, I used to do a "Sheld-o-glide" modification to Regina freewheel sprockets to make them shift better, re-shaping the forward/inner edges of the teeth on a bench grinder. It helped quite a lot, but even the modified ones didn't shift as well as the Shimano stuff.

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  25. #25
    Freewheel Medic pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Road Fan
    ...I could easily see the 120 wheel with a standard 6 slipping into the frame and spinning, but did you try it with the chain, pedaling hard in top gear (big/small)? This is the condition that precipitates frame rub on my 7-speed (narrow-spaced) 126 setup. The same bike works right with a standard 6. Basically, the freewheel fitment is not right until it works on the road under load, not on the repair stand. This all assumes you are not going to increase dish. You said you are concerned about wheel strength, so I think you should not increase wheel dish.

    ...If you end up with not enough frame spacing, the only problem is you'll have to start over to eliminate the chain sawing at your frame. On a collectible Paramount, I would not take the chance.
    Ok, it looks as if the 6 speed Reginas are on the way out and five speed Shimanos are my best option.

    No, I never tried the 6 speed UniGlide Le Tour wheel with a chain and thus never under load on the Paramount. So I'm not certain if I would have any chain rub or frame sawing (on the chain stay, I assume?). I just jumped to the conclusion I could do this because it worked so easily on my Schwinn Traveler (which appears to have the same frame dimensions as the Paramount).

    I converted my '79 Traveler from a 10 speed to an 18 by adding the 6 speed UG Le Tour wheels and swapping the original 52/42 crankset with a 50/40/32 one. I did change the derailleurs but nothing else. The BB spindle is the same and the rear dropouts stayed at 120mm. I guess it was just plain dumb luck! The pictures below sort of show what I did. Thanks for looking and thanks for your help.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Bob
    Dreaming of Summertime in NH!

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