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  1. #1
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    Why bother with modern bikes?

    I am really pleased to see composite bikes come down in price but it seems like a farce. Integrated headsets are a sick joke. They are cheaply compromising a good fork crown. I dont care how reliable they have been will an integrate headset last 20 years adjustment free? My Schwinn Supersport has not needed a damn bit of headset adjustment while my modern integrated has needed tons of attention when changing stems. The old quill might not be perfect but for crying out loud I havent had one damn problem changing stems. The integrated on the other hand has had problems. My Schwinn fork still works after nearly 20 years of abuse. My Mavic Module 700C...Not a damn problem. I am really not understanding why modern bikes are better. They do weigh less but a failed drop out on carbon means SOL service. Praise the ability to weld. Praise vintage tillt the end. Come the end of the world I wager that lugged steel will be riding after jeezus returns.Assuming you believe that BS. The 1 inch fork is far superior to overised tubing. Give me a crown race...What the hell my 20 year old headset has given me nothing but riding. While my overised integrated has been nothing but a hassle. I see no reason why an overweight vintage bike should be looked down upon. Weight is one thing reliability is another. I praise lugs until the end. Columbus SLX is nothing short of fantastic. I'm not denouncing modern composites but for christ sake...Lets get real... A 20 year old tenax tubed bike with an original headset still turns perfect. No repacking no bs. Vintage rules....I like to ride with confidence. I wish I could afford to ride a carbon bike but I sure as hell prefer to crash a steel bike. OOOOOOh a dented tube...no problem it can be repaired. Why dont they make carbon bikes that can be re-bonded with ease.l think this modern day cycling craze is nothing but BS. Steel is for the blue collar folk who don't want to buy into modern bling. I am so appaled by the lack of appreciation for vintage quality. I would really like to see a composite bike survive the abuse of a steel bike. Reynolds/Columbus is tried tested and proven. Sure the fatigue tests show that carbon is a better material but for somebody with a half a brain...They are still riding the same frame. Vintage rules!!!!!!!!!!! Lets not get screwed by the local bike store on modern crap. Vintage steel is tried tested and true. Screw the weight weenies. Lets rejoice and ride in comfort. I hope to god that the carbon makes steel bikes go down in price. Like LP's VS CD's...That infeferior technology is still going to serve a purpose down the road. Vintage rules Oh and praise the lord for horizontal drops cuz I sure as hell dont like derailer adjustements. Forgive me I have had too much beer...For the love of god I dont get it. Simple is better. Yee hah!

  2. #2
    Senior Citizen lyeinyoureye's Avatar
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  3. #3
    Senior Member raverson's Avatar
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    Yee hah!

  4. #4
    Freewheel Medic pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
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    Did I fall asleep in the pulpit yesterday and wake up in a pentecostal praise service for vintage steel bikes?

    Preach it Brother SoreFeet! You were on a roll! Can I bring a witness for my vintage Schwinns? Can I say "AMEN!"?
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  5. #5
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    Modern bike= modern wheels(less rolling resistance), modern shifting system(shifts better), modern brakes(much better) Instead of worrying about longevity, I prefer to enjoy bikes for their ride characteristics, and how much fun they are to ride. I have a new Giant, and I'm confident it will still be a viable machine 20 years from now, properly maintained. I also have over 20 vintage bikes of varying quality (from Paramount to Coast King) and honestly if a person wanted to ride the lower end vintage stuff they would be wrenching on it pretty regularly to keep it going. Vintage doesn't equate to quality in every case.

  6. #6
    Senior Member caotropheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyb
    modern shifting system(shifts better)
    I would like to live in your area so you cold compare your STI or Ergo indexed shifters with my downtube friction shifters. They are so smooth, that I replaced my modern mountain bicycle the indexed SRAM shifter by some friction shifters that I found on a 15 year old children's bicycle.

    But please fellows, do not think that I do not like modern bike technology, I love it. I also use modern technology on my bicycles and thanks to modern technology I can now afford a small collection of classic lugged racing bicycles like Bertin, Colnago, Nishiki, Bottecchia and this is just the beginning!
    Last edited by caotropheus; 06-26-06 at 06:26 AM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member sykerocker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyb
    Modern bike= modern wheels(less rolling resistance), modern shifting system(shifts better), modern brakes(much better) Instead of worrying about longevity, I prefer to enjoy bikes for their ride characteristics, and how much fun they are to ride. I have a new Giant, and I'm confident it will still be a viable machine 20 years from now, properly maintained. I also have over 20 vintage bikes of varying quality (from Paramount to Coast King) and honestly if a person wanted to ride the lower end vintage stuff they would be wrenching on it pretty regularly to keep it going. Vintage doesn't equate to quality in every case.
    As someone who's got one bike from the classic '10-speed' days, one modern-but-not-state-of-the-art, and a high end road bike from a period almost exactly in-between, I can see a lot of differences.

    Modern advantages: Brifters (boy, there should be a place in heaven for the person who first designed them) and rear cassettes (I love being able to fine tune a rear cluster, assuming I can find a place who's willing to sell me one single sprocket - thank God for mail order).

    Vintage advantages: As I ride lower end steel and aluminium modern frames, the old lugged steel still feels a hell of a lot better. It's a matter of 'you get what you pay for' no matter what decade. Cost - as in something vintage will do the job just as well as a modern state-of-the-art bike for MOST of us while the cash outlay is only something like 10/15% of modern.

    Although I've never had a chance to ride a modern state-of-the-art bike, I've got a very strong feeling that all the advantages of such bikes are completely wasted on those of us who merely tour or just to 10-50 mile daily workouts. Those of us who do not race professionally, who's life isn't really (not just emotionally) centered around those bicycles hanging in the shop, are probably riding such high end bikes for the sake of personal admiration (of the bike), sheer status (for our own egos), or just a plain willingness to spend all that money on something that really isn't cost effective.

    This phenomenon isn't just limited to bicycles, believe me. At the motorcycle shop where I work, if you think all those squids riding those 600cc and 1000cc race-rep sport bikes are actually using them to something resembling the bike's designed limitations, you're dreaming. Most of these guys would be better off on a 500cc cruiser - not that they'd ever be caught dead on one. It just ain't cool.

    Syke
    Deranged Few M/C

  8. #8
    Forum Admin lotek's Avatar
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    well you're preachin to the choir here, no?

    to be quite honest sometimes I like to ride my modern ( 8 speed ergo is as modern as I've gotten)
    bike, sometimes my early 90's (campy Croce) and sometimes my old bike (RIH 1973, N record gruppo),
    they're all good.
    I'm not such a luddite that I believe all progress is damnable and worthless. I also obviously
    don't look at "old school" as an anomoly which should be dragged out for Cirque du Cyclism only.

    which do I prefer? today the Croce equipped bike, ask me tomorrow and you
    might get a surprizingly different answer.

    marty
    Sono pił lento di quel che sembra.
    Odio la gente, tutti.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by caotropheus
    I would like to live in your area so you cold compare your STI or Ergo indexed shifters with my downtube friction shifters. They are so smooth, that I replaced my modern mountain bicycle the indexed SRAM shifter by some friction shifters that I found on a 15 year old children's bicycle.

    But please fellows, do not think that I do not like modern bike technology, I love it. I also use modern technology on my bicycles and thanks to modern technology I can now afford a small collection of classic lugged racing bicycles like Bertin, Colnago, Nishiki, Bottecchia and this is just the beginning!
    I agree that good friction shifters are smooth ( Shimano 600, Campy record, both of which I have on bikes) For me it is much easier to shift with brifters when standing going up hill for instance, or shifting going thru a curve.

  10. #10
    Senior Member nick burns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyb
    modern wheels(less rolling resistance)
    ???

    BS

  11. #11
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    I've thought about the motorcycle connection myself, as the proud owner of an air-cooled, points ignition, kickstart dinosaur. In both gas-motored and human-motored two-wheelers, there will be something lighter, stiffer -- better, they say -- out every year. That's how the manufacturers make money, and there are a lot of very good marketing people whose job it is to convince members of the buying public that they should get something new.

    I have found that many of the supposed improvements are noticeable only on paper, not in actual use. I know aero levers and dual-pivot brakes offer a mechanical improvement over my old centrepulls. But does riding with them actually enhance the cycling experience for me? Uh, no.

    I very strongly admire simplicity, as well as the repairability of a product. Things that are truly nice are not disposable.
    One thing about living in Santa Carla I never could stomach -- all the damn vampires.

  12. #12
    Luggite bsyptak's Avatar
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    Let me preface this by saying I love steel bikes!

    One thing I find disheartening is that as carbon frames continue to come down in price, steel ones continue to go up in price. It's almost getting to the point where buying a basic carbon bike is cheaper than buying a basic steel bike. And when that happens, it'll be difficult to justify steel in just about any terms except for longevity. And even that'll be a tough sell since carbon will be cheaper.

    Realistically, even though steel is repairable, almost nobody does repair them except for maybe ultra high quality frames (probably not, rich people just replace things) or people touring in Africa and have a tube break.

    As for the rest of the components, I'm pretty much OK with all of the new technology. I'm OK with 105 stuff, it's pretty cheap and works very well for me.

    OK, enough. I gotta stop rambling.

  13. #13
    Ferrous wheel
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick burns
    ???

    BS
    My old (late '50s) BH hub wheels spin far, far smoother, faster and longer than any modern sealed-bearing hub wheels I have ridden.
    One thing about living in Santa Carla I never could stomach -- all the damn vampires.

  14. #14
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyb
    Modern bike= modern wheels(less rolling resistance)
    Ever tried a pair of vintage Phil Woods?


    Quote Originally Posted by crazyb
    modern shifting system(shifts better)
    ...and the special Hyperglide ramping used for the superior indexing on the cassettes causes the cogs to wear out 5 times as fast, not to mention that they're a PITA to adjust. Don't get me started on mis-matched cassettes.


    Quote Originally Posted by crazyb
    modern brakes(much better)
    I have a pair of new 105s - they don't stop any better then my Campagnolo Triomphe. I bet Mavic Racer fans will beat you into the ground on this statement.


    Quote Originally Posted by crazyb
    Instead of worrying about longevity, I prefer to enjoy bikes for their ride characteristics, and how much fun they are to ride.
    Who said the vintage crowd is worried about longevity? We don't have to worry about longevity period. Furthermore, we do enjoy riding our vintage machines too - we're not always tinkering with them in the Park stand.


    Quote Originally Posted by crazyb
    I have a new Giant, and I'm confident it will still be a viable machine 20 years from now, properly maintained.
    Properly maintained = New rear cluster every 1000 miles, new STIs every 10 years, new wheels every 2000 mi...


    Quote Originally Posted by crazyb
    I also have over 20 vintage bikes of varying quality (from Paramount to Coast King) and honestly if a person wanted to ride the lower end vintage stuff they would be wrenching on it pretty regularly to keep it going. Vintage doesn't equate to quality in every case.
    Nobody ever said that 30-year-old department-store machines are quality. I believe the original poster was commenting on quality machines of the era, hence his reference to Reynolds and Columbus.

    -Kurt

  15. #15
    Certifiable Bike "Expert"
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    My philosophy is "why bother with old bikes?"


  16. #16
    Yet another vegan biker
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    >>>Originally Posted by crazyb
    >>>Modern bike= modern wheels(less rolling resistance)


    Ever tried a pair of vintage Phil Woods?
    Or even some of the cheaper old hubs. I have several pairs of Sansins and a set of Miche Competitiones that seem to spin forever.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by silversmith
    >>>Originally Posted by crazyb
    >>>Modern bike= modern wheels(less rolling resistance)




    Or even some of the cheaper old hubs. I have several pairs of Sansins and a set of Miche Competitiones that seem to spin forever.
    There is a lot more to rolling resistance than how well the bearings spin.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888
    Ever tried a pair of vintage Phil Woods?















    Properly maintained = New rear cluster every 1000 miles, new STIs every 10 years, new wheels every 2000 mi...




    -Kurt
    over 2000 miles and no problems with cluster or wheels. ???

  19. #19
    Senior Member nick burns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyb
    There is a lot more to rolling resistance than how well the bearings spin.

    So what are the advances in wheel technology that you claim contribute to a lowering of rolling resistance?

  20. #20
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoreFeet
    They do weigh less but a failed drop out on carbon means SOL service.
    I completely agree.

    I'd like to make one little exception here to the Vitus carbon/aluminum machines here though. As only the tubesets on the Vitus frames were carbon and the rest aluminum, they're pretty easy to service and bond together if nessesary.


    Quote Originally Posted by SoreFeet
    Praise the ability to weld. Praise vintage tillt the end. Come the end of the world I wager that lugged steel will be riding after jeezus returns.
    Amen!


    Quote Originally Posted by SoreFeet
    I see no reason why an overweight vintage bike should be looked down upon.
    Overweight? Careful there! My Peugeot PSV-10 weighs all of 18 pounds...and I believe the '05 Trek 1500s weigh 16 lbs. Does two pounds really make a difference with a pro rider on the saddle? No. For that matter, any lugged steel frame built by any current custom framebuilder could shave that weight down a bit more.


    Quote Originally Posted by SoreFeet
    Why dont they make carbon bikes that can be re-bonded with ease.
    They did...during the vintage era of course. See my comments on the Vitus framesets.


    Quote Originally Posted by SoreFeet
    l think this modern day cycling craze is nothing but BS.
    Amen to that too. Lyrca cycling garb is an excellent example - do you really need to put your kit on (or cycling shorts on) to go for a leisurely 5 mile ride to the grocery store, or anywhere else? No, it's all marketing BS.

    I note that this ridiculous trend is pretty much relegated to the U.S., and possibly some areas in Europe, but mainly an oddity of the U.S.

    I don't see cyclists in Amsterdam putting on cycling shorts to go to the theater, nor do they do so in China to ride their Flying Pigeons. Yet, here in America, you'll get laughed at in most shops if you mention that you ride in a polo shirt and trousers.

    Does lycra bike wear make you a pro cyclist? No, I see wannabe-riders riding their new Trek hybrids on the sidewalk with lyrca bike shorts.

    It's all hype to sell you a full lycra kit because this is AMERICA, and as AMERICANS, we HAVE to have the latest FAD, even if it means charging $500 worth of BIKE WEAR on our CREDIT CARDS..."


    Quote Originally Posted by SoreFeet
    Steel is for the blue collar folk who don't want to buy into modern bling.
    Steel is also for the professional cyclist who understands the benifits of a steel bike. See local framebuilder Michael Terraferma's site: http://www.terrafermacycles.com/


    Quote Originally Posted by SoreFeet
    I am so appaled by the lack of appreciation for vintage quality.
    Sorry to say that bicycles are not excluded from this. The majority of trend-following idiots out there have no appriciation for vintage anything, with the exception of gaudy jewlery and disgusting outdoor pots.

    Take automobiles. My two daily drivers are a pair of big, honkin', '78 & '79 Lincolns - one Mark V, the other a Continental Town Car. The TC in particular is quite nice, and recieves many thumbs up and "nice car" commentary from passers by.

    However, in the case of the "trendy" folks (the kind who'll buy both a Trek MTB and a Trek roadbike, along with the full kit, for no other reason other then to "Be Lance"), their reaction is mainly of amusement and curiosity - more often then not, trendy folks have attempted to ask me - in various different ways - the following: "It's interesting, but why do you drive an old car?" and "Why don't you buy a new car?"

    Do you get what I'm driving at? I'm sure you do.


    Quote Originally Posted by SoreFeet
    Lets not get screwed by the local bike store on modern crap.
    Most of us in the VLW crowd have argued the point out at shops with the usual LBS sales tactics...


    Quote Originally Posted by SoreFeet
    Vintage steel is tried tested and true. Screw the weight weenies.
    I wouldn't say "screw the weight weenies", for with the right choice of componentry, a VLW can weigh less then some carbon machines out there...

    Quote Originally Posted by SoreFeet
    Lets rejoice and ride in comfort. I hope to god that the carbon makes steel bikes go down in price.
    Already has happened - how many VLWs have you picked up for $50 at yard sales?

    As for brand-new lugged lightweights, they'll never go down in price. So long as carbon is king in the media's eye, lugged steel machines will remain to be expensive, custom items made by individual framebuilders.


    Quote Originally Posted by SoreFeet
    Like LP's VS CD's...That infeferior technology is still going to serve a purpose down the road.
    Yea, so they can come up with some other PITA system that's worse then CDs.

    Another digression: They say VHS isn't as good as DVD - well, I've had to clean fingerprints off the discs of 90% of the DVDs I've rented from the libary to make them work, yet, I've never ran into a libary VHS that requires cleaning.

    For that matter, digital screen TVs (mainly flat-screens today) are as annoying as hell. I don't care how smooth they make it, you can still see pixelation (particularly noticable in traditional white-on-black end credits of a movie). Traditional TVs didn't pixelate images that bad...

    End of rant, or whatever this was.

    -Kurt

  21. #21
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silversmith
    Or even some of the cheaper old hubs. I have several pairs of Sansins and a set of Miche Competitiones that seem to spin forever.
    True. I have one Miche Competition, and I'll back you up all the way on that statement.


    Quote Originally Posted by crazyb
    over 2000 miles and no problems with cluster or wheels. ???
    Save for the obligatory truing, that is correct. Try a Regina Oro or Suntour freewheel someday.


    Quote Originally Posted by crazyb
    There is a lot more to rolling resistance than how well the bearings spin.
    All right...educate us. What do modern wheels have that gives them a lower rolling resistance over vintage wheels, other then the bearing set?

  22. #22
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    This has got to be THE retrogrouch thread.

    I want my 5-speed freewheel and downtube friction shifters!

  23. #23
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantoj
    This has got to be THE retrogrouch thread.
    I want my 5-speed freewheel and downtube friction shifters!
    Damn straight.

    Yes, that's what I said - a damn straight top tube, none of this "compact" nonsense!

    -Kurt

  24. #24
    Chrome Freak Rabid Koala's Avatar
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    Amen to that too. Lyrca cycling garb is an excellent example - do you really need to put your kit on (or cycling shorts on) to go for a leisurely 5 mile ride to the grocery store, or anywhere else? No, it's all marketing BS.
    I totally agree with that statement. I own 6 bikes and NO Lycra. Shorts and a T-shirt do just fine for me.

    I prefer steel to aluminum or carbon. Steel fails gradually, the others catastrophically. I like the look and feel of a vintage high end ride. I have one Cannondale with brifters and 105-it shifts beautifully and is about as exciting as a Camry. My vintage rides require very little maintenance and will probably be good another 30 years in the future. I probably won't, though!

  25. #25
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabid Koala
    I totally agree with that statement. I own 6 bikes and NO Lycra. Shorts and a T-shirt do just fine for me.
    Around 30+ bikes over here and 5 pairs of trousers over here. Two pairs of jeans for work, but never for riding on a Brooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rabid Koala
    I prefer steel to aluminum or carbon. Steel fails gradually, the others catastrophically.
    ^
    +1

    I'd rather have my frame gradually warn me before failure...no thanks, I don't care to be spilled into the road at a second's notice!


    Quote Originally Posted by Rabid Koala
    I have one Cannondale with brifters and 105-it shifts beautifully and is about as exciting as a Camry.
    Haha - love the analogy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rabid Koala
    My vintage rides require very little maintenance and will probably be good another 30 years in the future. I probably won't, though!
    Very true...very true. And I dare say there'll be few C-F machines that will last as long as us...

    -Kurt

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