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  1. #1
    Senior Member MrCjolsen's Avatar
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    Can someone help me ID this frame?

    Lugged steel. LBS is pretty impressed with the lugs. Say the frame is hand made.
    Campy dropouts.
    Chrome fork crown
    Derailleur cable guides welded above the bottom bracket.
    Rack mounts
    Fender mounts
    Brake housing guides are above the top tube.

    Seat tube seems to be about 26.4

    Attached to the frame were the following:

    Specialized 48/44/26 cranks.
    Sugino bottom bracket
    Campy headset
    Remnants of a campy brake.
    Specialized stem.
    Suntour Mountech front Derailleur

    The frame was badly spray painted, had 3 speed bars, suntour bar end shifters, and Weinmann brake levers and red foam grips.

    Very long horzontal dropouts.

    And the most interesting thing, two water bottle cage mounts, both on the downtube.

    I imagine it's an old touring frame, but how old is the question. Seems to have a lot of tire clearance when I put 700c tires and rims on it. Perhaps was originally 27"?

    Top tube is 58 and seat tube is 59. But the standover is an inch more than my 60cm Surly Crosscheck. So it has a really high bottom bracket.

    The fact that the frame has a slightly bent derailleur hanger makes the detective in me believe that it somehow ended up in the hands of someone who didn't know much about bikes and was then discarded when it didn't shift right any more.

    It's going to be a fixie with a paint scheme similar to the bike in my signature file. I'm just curious how old the frame really is.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Senior Member cyclotoine's Avatar
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    Well need pics, sounds like an awesome old touring frame.
    1 Super Record bike, 1 Nuovo Record bike, 1 Pista, 1 Road, 1 Cyclocross/Allrounder, 1 MTB, 1 Touring, 1 Fixed gear

  3. #3
    Senior Member MrCjolsen's Avatar
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    I finally got some pics.

    Also, the BB is campy with a Sugino fixed cup (????) Definitely Italian threaded.

    The serial # is 61 T 0011 and the frame and fork both match.

    A guy at one shop said it could be an old Specialized Sequoia.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  4. #4
    Senior Member cyclotoine's Avatar
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    The BB is definately Italian? COuld this be an Italian touring frame? That would be very uncommon. I seem to remember some discussion on the CR list about the subject of italians building touring frames... I can't remember who it was that they said made some... Possibly Pogliaghi? Anyway with those cable stops and all it looks really cool. How long are the chainstays? I would make a perfect commuter with fenders and a rack etc.. but looks almost 2 nice for that kind of duty. If you fix it are you removing the braze ons? That would be a shame if it turns out to be Italian. As for age, based on the braze-ons I would say lates 70s to early 80s.
    1 Super Record bike, 1 Nuovo Record bike, 1 Pista, 1 Road, 1 Cyclocross/Allrounder, 1 MTB, 1 Touring, 1 Fixed gear

  5. #5
    Senior Member MrCjolsen's Avatar
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    Well, I'm planning to run it as a fixed gear (to me, it's a shame to let those nice long horizontal drops go to waste) but I'm not planning to remove anything except for the brake cable guides on top of the frame (one is already missing).

    Definitely Italian threads. The dimensions stamped on the BB match with Sheldon's guide to bottom brackets.

    Chainstays are pretty long. About 45.5 fromt the center of the bb to the back of the dropout.

    I'd like to give it a custom "first grade" paint job like my current fixie, but really do it right with automotive quality spray paint and clear coat it afterwards.

    This project came out of my search for an old frame to do another bike project with my first grade students and also because my current fixed gear frame is a little small for me. I wanted something similar in size to my 60cm Surly crosscheck.

    I did not expect to end up with such a nice frame for $35.

  6. #6
    Dr.Deltron
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    That paint job is pretty slick! Did you do that one?
    If not and you need help recreating that, contact me and I'll be happy to help.

  7. #7
    Forum Admin lotek's Avatar
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    the tangs on the forks look like either cinelli or cinelli clones, if so my best guess
    would be a Windsor. I'm not sure about the threading though, I'd wait until the
    heavy hitters (t-mar, TOG, Repchagne CV-6, et al) chime in.

    marty
    Sono pił lento di quel che sembra.
    Odio la gente, tutti.

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  8. #8
    Senior Member MrCjolsen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Deltron
    That paint job is pretty slick! Did you do that one?
    If not and you need help recreating that, contact me and I'll be happy to help.
    My first grade students did it. I gave each one a turn with their choice of color and stopped when it looked right. All I did was the flat black base.

    And then they helped me build up the frame. I told them what to do, but they did the actual wrenching. Ok, I did have to help them hold the tools and generally needed to tighten everything after school, but I did end up with a bike that was built and painted by first graders.

    You are talking about the bike in the link below. Right?

  9. #9
    Senior Member MrCjolsen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotek
    the tangs on the forks look like either cinelli or cinelli clones, if so my best guess
    would be a Windsor. I'm not sure about the threading though, I'd wait until the
    heavy hitters (t-mar, TOG, Repchagne CV-6, et al) chime in.

    marty
    I just got back from the LBS where I had the headset races removed and while I was there, they measured the seat post. It's 27.2, which would point toward it being a Windsor, according to my research. But I think the water bottle bosses will be the giveaway, since I have never seen a bike with two sets of water bottle bosses on the downtube right next to each other.

  10. #10
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
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    Nope, not a Windsor or Raysport, the rear cluster is all wrong...so are the head lugs. Only thing that looks Mexican-Cinelli is the fork, but that could be a replacement, or...Windsor wasn't the ONLY mfgr. to copy the Cinelli 3-hole motif. It's a definite weird one, but looks like a good one: the BB shell mitering and other quality build details...BTW the BB shell is either a Cinelli "early" investment cast shell or a Fisher from Switzerland, they look very similar. And Fisher shells were used by many European builders, from Italy to England. A Specialized Sequoia it AIN'T, but it IS some touring frame...very curious indeed...

  11. #11
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
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    I just re-read your original post, you say those are Campy dropouts, with double eyelets? Please confirm. Also I see you say the fork and frame "match": is the same serial no. stamped on both the BB shell and the steerer? Last detail I picked out: those toptube cable guides are a style I've usually seen only on non-Italian frames, mainly French...but no way this is French...I'm dying to learn the truth. Whatever you do, don't butcher it until you learn its history.

  12. #12
    Senior Member MrCjolsen's Avatar
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    The # stamped on the steer tube and the #on the bottom bracket are the same. - 61 T 011.

    The bottom bracket is Italian threaded.

    Oh, all of the campy components that were still on the bike had the word "brevet" somewhere on them.

    I don't plan on butchering anything except for the cable guides on the top tube, one of which is already missing.
    BTW, they appear to be the cheapest part of the whole frame. One of them was smashed and broke off when I tried to fix it. They are very thin metal, unlike the other guides. If necessary, I'll have a framebuilder put them back on.

    BTW, I plan on running it fixed because I like riding fixed. I previous hobby was old Volkswagens, so I fully understand how to customize something in a non-destructive manner. The '85 Giant from which my current fixed gear was born can still be returned to its previous 14 speed state.

    As you can see, the paint on the frame is toast. I am having second thoughts about having my first graders paint it, but that depends on how I think I can make it look.

    Finally, I don't believe in "beater" bikes. Whatever I do, I pay close attention to aesthetics and maintaining some element of a classic look. Fenders, moustache bars and a Brooks saddle are definitely in this bikes future.

  13. #13
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
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    Finally, I don't believe in "beater" bikes. Whatever I do, I pay close attention to aesthetics and maintaining some element of a classic look. Fenders, moustache bars and a Brooks saddle are definitely in this bikes future.
    Glad to hear that! Sounds like the bike will get a bright new second life, and that's what we all like best. I hope some Campy expert chimes in really soon, the 1010 style rear DOs with double eyelets seem very rare to me, I'd like to see somebody who knows comment on the date indicated by "brev" versus "patent" on those DOs...this is stuff I haven't studied, but '70s seems likely. All in all, it seems like a rare bird, as Cyclotoine pointed out, there was a very small band of touring affectionadoes in Italy, and one builder who generally supplied them with Italian steel, but I haven't found that archive reference yet...I don't think it was Pogliaghi.

  14. #14
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
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    OK, I admit I'm hooked on this topic, but I'll take a break after this post. I found this old post from a guy with an "Italian touring frame", seeking info: Still looking for any information regarding an Italian "touring" bike
    called a Riggio
    Americana. Anyone have any information on the bike, or heard of it before.
    It's Columbus SL, lugged with a nice chrome fork crown. Email directly if
    you want photo's to figure this one out.
    JD "Stumped again" Edwards
    Edgewood, NM
    --- J. Edwards
    --- jdedwards3(AT)earthlink.net
    it's from 2003, but maybe you can email for pics, he might have those and a story, too...the crome forkcrown mentioned is kind of tantalizing. But then I was also thinking, your frame may tell another tale when fully stripped: the high bottom bracket and lack of canti braze-ons speaks against it being a classic tourist. I could guess that the BB shell could have been a BSC reamed and retapped for Italian BB, and the extra eyelets, DT guides and rackmounts brazed on before a respray to make a conventional Sport bike into a Tourist...just some thoughts...so, measure the width of the BB shell for either 68 or 70mm.

  15. #15
    hunter, gatherer coelcanth's Avatar
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    it would not be unusual for a builder to add on a second set of eyelets, as appears to be the case with this frame..
    probably when the frame is stripped the brazing will become evident

  16. #16
    Senior Member MrCjolsen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unworthy1
    the high bottom bracket and lack of canti braze-ons speaks against it being a classic tourist. I could guess that the BB shell could have been a BSC reamed and retapped for Italian BB, and the extra eyelets, DT guides and rackmounts brazed on before a respray to make a conventional Sport bike into a Tourist...just some thoughts...so, measure the width of the BB shell for either 68 or 70mm.


    Just a few more things. It probably had 27" wheels. With a 700c wheel, the reach from the bolt to the center of the braking surface is right at 60mm. Pretty long, longer than what is currently advertised as "long reach" brakes.

    Also, I got the frame from a very run down shop that sells and referbs used bikes. I was in a twisted heap of old frames that probably would have been tossed some time soon. So I indeed rescued it.

    It had some really crappy parts on it along with a smattering of campy. 3 speed bars with red foam grips (ugh!) and suntour barcons (one broken, one dangling by its cable.) The Specialized stuff on the bike is OK (stem and crank) and I actually used the 26t ring to convert my Surly Crosscheck into a triple. Everything had red paint overspray on it. The rear derailleur hanger is slightly bent, as well.

    It's seems that at some point, whoever was in posession of this frame didn't know or care what they had.

    And with the bb off, the shell definitely measures 70mm.

  17. #17
    Senior Member MrCjolsen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coelcanth
    it would not be unusual for a builder to add on a second set of eyelets, as appears to be the case with this frame..
    probably when the frame is stripped the brazing will become evident
    Please explain. I'm still unfamiliar with the terminology behind frambuilding.

    Is it possible it was a custom built frame? That might explain that there's no evidence of it ever having a headbadge.

    Should I let Steve Rex take look at it?

  18. #18
    hunter, gatherer coelcanth's Avatar
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    all meant was campy dropouts came forged with one or no eyelets,
    the builder (custom or production or modification) seems to have brazed on a second set..
    when the paint is off the frame you will probably see the little brass fillet that holds them on

    it's possible it was a custom frame, but either way it was carefully built as evidenced by the mitering job in the bb shell.
    the 27.2 seatpost size indicates a good quality butted tubeset..
    the frame looks tall.. is it a 61cm ?? perhaps that corresponds with the 61 stamping.. if so then perhaps the serial number is low, like a small run from a small shop ?

  19. #19
    Senior Member cyclotoine's Avatar
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    I believe the Brev. Camp dropouts came later, definately in the 80s but I cannot pinpoint the year they switched from patent to brev. As we all know with chainrings, the switch happened around 1980. Give or take a year. I don't think a touring frame needs to have cantilevers and if this frame dates to 1982 I wouldn't expect it to have cantilevers as they didn't become standard till about 1984. I think good center pulls could provide adequate stopping power. I have only had one bike which I set up with centerpulls, they were diacomp and they worked like a charm. Anyway, I'm at the more words than Ideas point here.... I would still classify it as a touring rather than sport frame especially with the interesting water bottle braze ons and long chain stays.
    1 Super Record bike, 1 Nuovo Record bike, 1 Pista, 1 Road, 1 Cyclocross/Allrounder, 1 MTB, 1 Touring, 1 Fixed gear

  20. #20
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclotoine
    I wouldn't expect it to have cantilevers as they didn't become standard till about 1984. I would still classify it as a touring rather than sport frame especially with the interesting water bottle braze ons and long chain stays.
    Cantis were very much in use on '70s touring frames, first I personally ever saw were on a '74 Ron Cooper and they were the Mafacs that cyclocross racers used throughout the decades, you even see them on the occasional CX bike in this century! But I was thinking of the "classic" set up for touring which would definitely have a LOW BB as well as long wheelbase, slack angles, and all the braze ons for racks and...stronger than stock brakes to handle the extra weight of a bike with a load, like cantis. Given this bike has an Italian threaded BB shell and unusual placement of bottle bosses, it could be a custom build for somebody with very specific tastes (high BB, regular brakes, 27" wheels, Italian) or a bike reworked by a builder to fit this shopping list...I'd say show it to Steve Rex, sure, if he'll take the time to look at it I'm sure he'll see some things we don't. Hmmm...27" wheels on an Italian bike...hmmm...not a gaspiperbut Columbus SL or the like...how unusual is THAT?

  21. #21
    Senior Member MrCjolsen's Avatar
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    When did 700c wheels come into being? All I know is that my cheap bikes I had in the 70's were 27" and my 1989 Allez was 700c.

    If it means anything, the stripped frame weighs 4lbs 13oz. That's lighter than the published weight of anything Surly builds today of the same size. (the only tangible reference for me)

  22. #22
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
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    First off, although I will readliy embarass myself by pretending to know stuff, the real authority on much of this is Sheldon Brown...always go to his extensive website first for the facts, written in a much more entertaining fashion than I can pull off. That said, I'll go ahead and embarass myself again: the 700C clincher rim size was developed to match the size of the typical sew-up or tubular rim. 27" rims had been available in clincher rims for many years prior to this but were primarily a North American Market offering and extracted from the British rim standard. There were thousands of steel 27" rims, followed by thousands of AL alloy rims of varying strength and quality, but for the most part HIGH quality bikes from the Continent (FR, IT, Benelux, SP) came equipped with tubular rims when imported to the US/Canada. Mavic is generally credited with the first high strength 700C clincher, the Module E, quickly followed by Rigida and then Super Champion...the high pressure clincher tires to work on these rims were developed simultaneously, mostly by FR manufacturers. Here's where Sheldon will be a better source than me, but I recall seeing all this in the early '70s at my LBS, maybe about '73-'74.

  23. #23
    Senior Member MrCjolsen's Avatar
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    I started stripping the paint. The whole fork was chrome underneath the red.

    BTW, I now hate red.

  24. #24
    Senior Member M-theory's Avatar
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    That frame looks like an older Woodrup Giro. Some Giros had non wrap-around seatstays along with Cinelli fork crowns and bottom brackets. Same lug pattern too.

  25. #25
    hunter, gatherer coelcanth's Avatar
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    but italian threading ?

    Quote Originally Posted by M-theory
    That frame looks like an older Woodrup Giro. Some Giros had non wrap-around seatstays along with Cinelli fork crowns and bottom brackets. Same lug pattern too.

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