Need help dating a Holdsworth frame.
12-14-06, 07:21 PM
#1
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Need help dating a Holdsworth frame.
The serial number is 74826 and it it has three brazed on cable guides on the top tube. When were braze ons first used? It has been repainted so I don't know the model. I have been told that it might be a 1975 Italia.
12-14-06, 09:28 PM
#2
feros ferio
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Brazed rear brake cable guides replaced clips during the 1970s.
I wish I knew how Holdsworth serial numbers map to production dates.
I wish I knew how Holdsworth serial numbers map to production dates.
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Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
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"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
12-14-06, 11:51 PM
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Maybe you've already seen Norman Kilgariff's website devoted to Holdsworth/Holdsworthy, but here it is just in case:
https://homepage.ntlworld.com/nkilgariff/
He used to take serial number question emails, but has shut down that service due to a flood of them, I guess. Since he links to Yellow Jersey in Madison, WI, maybe they can be of service...or maybe you can get a clue from the catalogs scanned in Norman's site...good luck to ya!
https://homepage.ntlworld.com/nkilgariff/
He used to take serial number question emails, but has shut down that service due to a flood of them, I guess. Since he links to Yellow Jersey in Madison, WI, maybe they can be of service...or maybe you can get a clue from the catalogs scanned in Norman's site...good luck to ya!
12-15-06, 07:25 PM
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I have a Holdsworth and because of my interest in these bikes, I've collected about 45 serial numbers and sometimes can come close to pinning down a year of mfg.
12-15-06, 07:45 PM
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Great frame, but dude, wouldn't you rather date women? 
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
12-15-06, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1
Yow! That is the FIRST any of us have ever heard that joke...
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
10-05-07, 08:59 AM
#9
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About your Holdsworth numbers?
https://ludicrousexploits.blogspot.com/
10-05-07, 10:15 AM
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There's a pic in Norman's site that shows the same badge as yours, and states:
"The pre-war Holdsworth brass rectangular badge, with a dark background, re-appeared late 1946 or 1947 as shown on Doug Smiths original finish 1947 La Quelda."
So it seems that this "Worthy" brass badge was both pre- and post-war...maybe Skip will see your post and have some info based on the serial number. It clearly seems to be an early bike, but I can't date it exactly.
"The pre-war Holdsworth brass rectangular badge, with a dark background, re-appeared late 1946 or 1947 as shown on Doug Smiths original finish 1947 La Quelda."
So it seems that this "Worthy" brass badge was both pre- and post-war...maybe Skip will see your post and have some info based on the serial number. It clearly seems to be an early bike, but I can't date it exactly.
02-16-15, 07:21 AM
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Hello WF Holdsworth,
If the serial number is correct it does not fit the quite well known Holdsworthy Factory sequence. The smaller WF Holdsworth Putney shop from 1965 to 1975 used a numbering system that began with two digits signifying year of build. Therefore the serial number 74826 could very well signify a 1974 Italia.
Doug
If the serial number is correct it does not fit the quite well known Holdsworthy Factory sequence. The smaller WF Holdsworth Putney shop from 1965 to 1975 used a numbering system that began with two digits signifying year of build. Therefore the serial number 74826 could very well signify a 1974 Italia.
Doug
02-16-15, 08:48 AM
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@allend, this thread is many years old... and the guy who started it only ever posted 29 times; I'd guess he's moved on.
Nonetheless, since it's bumped anyway, what would you say to the serial number 1492 on the BB and fork steerer of a Holdsworth-made Claud Butler?
Nonetheless, since it's bumped anyway, what would you say to the serial number 1492 on the BB and fork steerer of a Holdsworth-made Claud Butler?
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02-16-15, 08:54 AM
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Hello WF Holdsworth,
If the serial number is correct it does not fit the quite well known Holdsworthy Factory sequence. The smaller WF Holdsworth Putney shop from 1965 to 1975 used a numbering system that began with two digits signifying year of build. Therefore the serial number 74826 could very well signify a 1974 Italia.
Doug
If the serial number is correct it does not fit the quite well known Holdsworthy Factory sequence. The smaller WF Holdsworth Putney shop from 1965 to 1975 used a numbering system that began with two digits signifying year of build. Therefore the serial number 74826 could very well signify a 1974 Italia.
Doug
02-16-15, 10:21 AM
#14
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@allend, this thread is many years old... and the guy who started it only ever posted 29 times; I'd guess he's moved on.
Nonetheless, since it's bumped anyway, what would you say to the serial number 1492 on the BB and fork steerer of a Holdsworth-made Claud Butler?
Nonetheless, since it's bumped anyway, what would you say to the serial number 1492 on the BB and fork steerer of a Holdsworth-made Claud Butler?
02-16-15, 11:43 AM
#15
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Without pictures of bike, more info ie prox age (even decade a help), model name, how was built up, original shop supplier if known and removal of any doubt re serial number it is difficult to say for sure the meaning of this number. Claud Butler numbers are not always straight forward. If pre Holdsworth it could be '31, '41 or if definite Holdsworth era '61 is possible. Then again during the Holdsworth era it appears individual shops were using their own numbering systems and I have even heard tales of builders just stamping on any old numbers! Do you know where original purchase was made?
I can post better photos later. I got it as a bare frame on eBay, no original components, terrible 1980s paint and bogus "Witcomb" decals. It matches photos of 1963-1969? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint frames except that there are no mudguard eyelets. Straight gauge 531 throughout.
Holdsworth also made a Freddie Grubb badged frame that looked like this, sometimes with a different fork crown, sometimes without mud guard eyelets like mine.
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Last edited by rhm; 02-16-15 at 11:47 AM.
02-16-15, 11:48 AM
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I for one want to encourage Mr. Allend to stick around and take up the gauntlet (that has been cast aside by both Norman Kilgariff and our now-inactive Skip Magnuson) and solve the
"Mystery of the Holdsworth/Holdsworthy Serial Numbers"!
Those two probably had a load of numbers compiled, and untold knowledge, that have now been lost to history...such a shame.
Anyway, here's my two:
Super Mistral, black with red/orange head tube and panel: 001240 (stamped on BB) Skip thought this was a "mid-70s"
Touring, was pea-soup green, now bronze, has vertical Campy DOs, canti brake bosses: 69226 (stamped in a "vertical stack" on BB) seems pretty logical that this might be a '69, but...is it?
and a pic of the Touring's serial number "stack"
"Mystery of the Holdsworth/Holdsworthy Serial Numbers"!
Those two probably had a load of numbers compiled, and untold knowledge, that have now been lost to history...such a shame.
Anyway, here's my two:
Super Mistral, black with red/orange head tube and panel: 001240 (stamped on BB) Skip thought this was a "mid-70s"
Touring, was pea-soup green, now bronze, has vertical Campy DOs, canti brake bosses: 69226 (stamped in a "vertical stack" on BB) seems pretty logical that this might be a '69, but...is it?
and a pic of the Touring's serial number "stack"
02-16-15, 03:10 PM
#17
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I have 3 Holdsworths:
1973 W.F. Holdsworth Competizone in Team Kit SN 0014
EDITED: March, 2018
Last fall I switched to new riding shoes that were 1/2" shorter. I tried to lower the seat to compensate but it wouldn't go down any further.
The Holdsworth flyer below says "Built with good quality tubing" so I'd assumed that the frame may have been made with .9mm wall thickness straight gage Reynolds 531 main tubes because it took a 26.8mm seat post.
I took out my handy adjustable reamer but it wouldn't go down any further than the seatpost did. Looked down the seat tube with a flashlight a saw about a 1/16' seam down the inside of the tube.
After removing about a 1" of the seam I discovered that the seat tube had been previously reamed - probably at the factory??? The remaining wall thickness of the tubing was at least 1mm. It was quite a bit of work removing .5mm of material.
I never weighed it but the bike weighs a ton. Probably made of gas pipe tubing. It doesn't really matter because it's one of my favorite riding and handling bikes.
What's surprising is that the lug work and other details are up to Holdsworth standards. That they used cheap tubing is a head scratcher!
1973 Professional - still a bare frame SN 35024
1984 753 SN 841117 AC (Bit of a mystery frame. Holdsworth only listed 753 frames for a year or two in the late 70s. This is made of 2nd generation 753R)
EDIT March, 2018
I got this as a bare frame from an eBay seller in the UK. It has a shop sticker that says: Supplied or Refurbished by ARTHUR CAYGILL CYCLES RICHMOND NORTH YORKSHIRE.
It could be an ersatz Holdsworth frame made by Arthur Caygill. The 841117 AC serial number could have been for November 17, 1984??? That was about a year before Marlboro took over Holdsworth production in 1985.
It has fluted seat stay caps, an odd crown for a Holdsworth plus Campy 1010/B dropouts with fender eyelets. They're part of the forgings not add-ons. Never seen them with eyelets before plus the right rear dropout is drilled for a Portacatena chain holder which was only made from 1977 through the early 80's.
I contacted the folks at Arthur Caygill for more info. They were rather curt. All they wanted to talk about was selling me a new frame!
The 1973 Professional is probably the only valid SN to add to the data base.
verktyg
Chas.
1973 W.F. Holdsworth Competizone in Team Kit SN 0014
EDITED: March, 2018
Last fall I switched to new riding shoes that were 1/2" shorter. I tried to lower the seat to compensate but it wouldn't go down any further.
The Holdsworth flyer below says "Built with good quality tubing" so I'd assumed that the frame may have been made with .9mm wall thickness straight gage Reynolds 531 main tubes because it took a 26.8mm seat post.
I took out my handy adjustable reamer but it wouldn't go down any further than the seatpost did. Looked down the seat tube with a flashlight a saw about a 1/16' seam down the inside of the tube.
After removing about a 1" of the seam I discovered that the seat tube had been previously reamed - probably at the factory??? The remaining wall thickness of the tubing was at least 1mm. It was quite a bit of work removing .5mm of material.
I never weighed it but the bike weighs a ton. Probably made of gas pipe tubing. It doesn't really matter because it's one of my favorite riding and handling bikes.
What's surprising is that the lug work and other details are up to Holdsworth standards. That they used cheap tubing is a head scratcher!
1973 Professional - still a bare frame SN 35024
1984 753 SN 841117 AC (Bit of a mystery frame. Holdsworth only listed 753 frames for a year or two in the late 70s. This is made of 2nd generation 753R)
EDIT March, 2018
I got this as a bare frame from an eBay seller in the UK. It has a shop sticker that says: Supplied or Refurbished by ARTHUR CAYGILL CYCLES RICHMOND NORTH YORKSHIRE.
It could be an ersatz Holdsworth frame made by Arthur Caygill. The 841117 AC serial number could have been for November 17, 1984??? That was about a year before Marlboro took over Holdsworth production in 1985.
It has fluted seat stay caps, an odd crown for a Holdsworth plus Campy 1010/B dropouts with fender eyelets. They're part of the forgings not add-ons. Never seen them with eyelets before plus the right rear dropout is drilled for a Portacatena chain holder which was only made from 1977 through the early 80's.
I contacted the folks at Arthur Caygill for more info. They were rather curt. All they wanted to talk about was selling me a new frame!
The 1973 Professional is probably the only valid SN to add to the data base.
verktyg
Chas.
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Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Last edited by verktyg; 06-03-18 at 02:06 AM.
02-17-15, 10:57 PM
#18
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Members,
Thanks for the flattery, but I do not claim to be an expert. What I have learned re Holdsworths and Claud Butlers has been gleaned from sites I am sure most are aware of as Norman Kilgariff's site, Classic Lightweights and Classic Rendezvous. I did recently spend a good amount of time collecting a "pile" of mainly Holdsworth variant Claud Butler numbers trying to brake the "Enigma Code" and in process make sense of my new Claud's serial number. I have summarized everything I have learned in the dissertation under the following Flickr photo:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/767624...7648723035788/
You should be able to fine tune your frames' age estimates. However difficulty arises with some serial numbers that do not fit into any recognizable pattern and it is impossible to answer without conjecture. I am interested in acquiring frame numbers especially Holdsworth variant Claud's with accurate pedigree. Some of the answers may become clear with time.
Cheers, Doug
Thanks for the flattery, but I do not claim to be an expert. What I have learned re Holdsworths and Claud Butlers has been gleaned from sites I am sure most are aware of as Norman Kilgariff's site, Classic Lightweights and Classic Rendezvous. I did recently spend a good amount of time collecting a "pile" of mainly Holdsworth variant Claud Butler numbers trying to brake the "Enigma Code" and in process make sense of my new Claud's serial number. I have summarized everything I have learned in the dissertation under the following Flickr photo:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/767624...7648723035788/
You should be able to fine tune your frames' age estimates. However difficulty arises with some serial numbers that do not fit into any recognizable pattern and it is impossible to answer without conjecture. I am interested in acquiring frame numbers especially Holdsworth variant Claud's with accurate pedigree. Some of the answers may become clear with time.
Cheers, Doug
Last edited by allend; 02-18-15 at 06:44 AM. Reason: grammar
02-18-15, 07:16 AM
#19
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Hey Doug,
a few points...
1. this is the internet and
2. you've done more research than most of us and
3. you've published your results (see point no. 1 above) and
4. provided suitable disclaimers here, so
5. You're the expert.
Sorry, but that's the way it is. Done deal
!
a few points...
1. this is the internet and
2. you've done more research than most of us and
3. you've published your results (see point no. 1 above) and
4. provided suitable disclaimers here, so
5. You're the expert.
Sorry, but that's the way it is. Done deal
!
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02-18-15, 08:27 AM
#20
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@allend, this thread is many years old... and the guy who started it only ever posted 29 times; I'd guess he's moved on.
Nonetheless, since it's bumped anyway, what would you say to the serial number 1492 on the BB and fork steerer of a Holdsworth-made Claud Butler?
Nonetheless, since it's bumped anyway, what would you say to the serial number 1492 on the BB and fork steerer of a Holdsworth-made Claud Butler?
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“One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk
02-18-15, 09:53 AM
#21
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I have a ca 1981 Hodsworth Special. Don't know if the SN would be of interest, but I can look it up and post if you like.
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02-18-15, 12:57 PM
#22
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Sure, send the SN along. Do you have any other dating info, pics? Thanks to others for numbers as well. D
02-21-15, 07:37 PM
#23
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Hi there Wileyone,
Re 67117K Holdsworth branded frame I'd say definitely a 1967 WF Holdsworth Putney Shop frame. K signiifies it was built for stock to sell from floor. If you look at Kilgariff's site he says the shop made Italia Tourers for stock. By look of fender eyes on your frame that is probably what it is. It has an integral seat post bolt that is characteristic of a shop build as well as chunkier seat stay wraparound. Reg Collard was the well respected head frame builder and did mostly "specials". Other guys as Tommy Quick, Alec Bird and Chas Roberts were there at unclear times and did mostly stock frames as yours. Again info from Kilgariff. They only made about 150 frames per year in shop compared with 10 times that number in factory. The sticker on lower seat tube near BB would not be correct as if I remember correctly was not used until later 70's. Beautiful frame!
D
Re 67117K Holdsworth branded frame I'd say definitely a 1967 WF Holdsworth Putney Shop frame. K signiifies it was built for stock to sell from floor. If you look at Kilgariff's site he says the shop made Italia Tourers for stock. By look of fender eyes on your frame that is probably what it is. It has an integral seat post bolt that is characteristic of a shop build as well as chunkier seat stay wraparound. Reg Collard was the well respected head frame builder and did mostly "specials". Other guys as Tommy Quick, Alec Bird and Chas Roberts were there at unclear times and did mostly stock frames as yours. Again info from Kilgariff. They only made about 150 frames per year in shop compared with 10 times that number in factory. The sticker on lower seat tube near BB would not be correct as if I remember correctly was not used until later 70's. Beautiful frame!
D
Last edited by allend; 02-22-15 at 09:16 AM. Reason: grammar
02-22-15, 09:32 AM
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Hi there Wileyone,
Re 67117K Holdsworth branded frame I'd say definitely a 1967 WF Holdsworth Putney Shop frame. K signiifies it was built for stock to sell from floor. If you look at Kilgariff's site he says the shop made Italia Tourers for stock. By look of fender eyes on your frame that is probably what it is. It has an integral seat post bolt that is characteristic of a shop build as well as chunkier seat stay wraparound. Reg Collard was the well respected head frame builder and did mostly "specials". Other guys as Tommy Quick, Alec Bird and Chas Roberts were there at unclear times and did mostly stock frames as yours. Again info from Kilgariff. They only made about 150 frames per year in shop compared with 10 times that number in factory. The sticker on lower seat tube near BB would not be correct as if I remember correctly was not used until later 70's. Beautiful frame!
D
Re 67117K Holdsworth branded frame I'd say definitely a 1967 WF Holdsworth Putney Shop frame. K signiifies it was built for stock to sell from floor. If you look at Kilgariff's site he says the shop made Italia Tourers for stock. By look of fender eyes on your frame that is probably what it is. It has an integral seat post bolt that is characteristic of a shop build as well as chunkier seat stay wraparound. Reg Collard was the well respected head frame builder and did mostly "specials". Other guys as Tommy Quick, Alec Bird and Chas Roberts were there at unclear times and did mostly stock frames as yours. Again info from Kilgariff. They only made about 150 frames per year in shop compared with 10 times that number in factory. The sticker on lower seat tube near BB would not be correct as if I remember correctly was not used until later 70's. Beautiful frame!
D
