Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-14-06, 07:21 PM   #1
WF Holdsworth
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Need help dating a Holdsworth frame.

The serial number is 74826 and it it has three brazed on cable guides on the top tube. When were braze ons first used? It has been repainted so I don't know the model. I have been told that it might be a 1975 Italia.
WF Holdsworth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-06, 09:28 PM   #2
John E
feros ferio
 
John E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Bikes: 1959 Capo; 1980 Peugeot PKN-10; 1981 Bianchi; 1988 Schwinn KOM-10;
Posts: 17,046
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Brazed rear brake cable guides replaced clips during the 1970s.

I wish I knew how Holdsworth serial numbers map to production dates.
__________________
"Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
Capo [dschaw'-poe]: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger, S/N 42624
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1981 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
John E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-06, 11:51 PM   #3
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 9,242
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Maybe you've already seen Norman Kilgariff's website devoted to Holdsworth/Holdsworthy, but here it is just in case:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nkilgariff/
He used to take serial number question emails, but has shut down that service due to a flood of them, I guess. Since he links to Yellow Jersey in Madison, WI, maybe they can be of service...or maybe you can get a clue from the catalogs scanned in Norman's site...good luck to ya!
unworthy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-06, 07:25 PM   #4
Skip Magnuson
SkipM
 
Skip Magnuson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Spokane, Washington
Bikes: Italvega 1971, Italvega 1972 SuperSpeciale, Holdsworth Mistral 1983.
Posts: 162
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have a Holdsworth and because of my interest in these bikes, I've collected about 45 serial numbers and sometimes can come close to pinning down a year of mfg.
Skip Magnuson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-06, 07:45 PM   #5
chipcom 
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Posts: 24,366
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Great frame, but dude, wouldn't you rather date women?
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-06, 09:58 PM   #6
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 9,242
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Yow! That is the FIRST any of us have ever heard that joke...
unworthy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-06, 10:02 PM   #7
Dr.Deltron
Guest
 
Bikes:
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chipcom
Great frame, but dude, wouldn't you rather date women?
I was gonna say he needed to buy it a couple of good margaritas first!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-06, 10:15 PM   #8
chipcom 
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Posts: 24,366
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by unworthy1
Yow! That is the FIRST any of us have ever heard that joke...
What, you want me to be original too? Tough crowd.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-07, 08:59 AM   #9
gdn26
GDN26
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oxford and Bletchley
Bikes: Bianchi, Giant and Holdsworth
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
About your Holdsworth numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Magnuson View Post
I have a Holdsworth and because of my interest in these bikes, I've collected about 45 serial numbers and sometimes can come close to pinning down a year of mfg.
I have frame number 6497. Any ideas on the date? Pictures here if it helps
http://ludicrousexploits.blogspot.com/
gdn26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-07, 10:15 AM   #10
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 9,242
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
There's a pic in Norman's site that shows the same badge as yours, and states:
"The pre-war Holdsworth brass rectangular badge, with a dark background, re-appeared late 1946 or 1947 as shown on Doug Smiths original finish 1947 La Quelda."
So it seems that this "Worthy" brass badge was both pre- and post-war...maybe Skip will see your post and have some info based on the serial number. It clearly seems to be an early bike, but I can't date it exactly.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Hbadge.jpg (27.6 KB, 38 views)
unworthy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-15, 07:21 AM   #11
allend
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Halifax, NS, Canada
Bikes: '51 Holdsworth Sirocco, '65 Holdsworth Typhoon, '68 Claud Butler
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Hello WF Holdsworth,
If the serial number is correct it does not fit the quite well known Holdsworthy Factory sequence. The smaller WF Holdsworth Putney shop from 1965 to 1975 used a numbering system that began with two digits signifying year of build. Therefore the serial number 74826 could very well signify a 1974 Italia.
Doug
allend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-15, 08:48 AM   #12
rhm
multimodal commuter
 
rhm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
Posts: 15,738
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
@allend, this thread is many years old... and the guy who started it only ever posted 29 times; I'd guess he's moved on.

Nonetheless, since it's bumped anyway, what would you say to the serial number 1492 on the BB and fork steerer of a Holdsworth-made Claud Butler?
__________________
New leather for old saddles.
rhm is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-15, 08:54 AM   #13
Ex Pres
#39
 
Ex Pres's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: the 35223 (AL)
Bikes:
Posts: 6,260
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by allend View Post
Hello WF Holdsworth,
If the serial number is correct it does not fit the quite well known Holdsworthy Factory sequence. The smaller WF Holdsworth Putney shop from 1965 to 1975 used a numbering system that began with two digits signifying year of build. Therefore the serial number 74826 could very well signify a 1974 Italia.
Doug
Well, I guess my Record (best guess 1973) with a ser# of 37478 wasn't built at Putney
Ex Pres is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-15, 10:21 AM   #14
allend
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Halifax, NS, Canada
Bikes: '51 Holdsworth Sirocco, '65 Holdsworth Typhoon, '68 Claud Butler
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhm View Post
@allend, this thread is many years old... and the guy who started it only ever posted 29 times; I'd guess he's moved on.

Nonetheless, since it's bumped anyway, what would you say to the serial number 1492 on the BB and fork steerer of a Holdsworth-made Claud Butler?
Without pictures of bike, more info ie approx age (even decade a help), model name, how was built up, original shop supplier if known and removal of any doubt re serial number it is difficult to say for sure the meaning of this number. Claud Butler numbers are not always straight forward. If pre Holdsworth it could be '31, '41 or if definite Holdsworth era '61 is possible. Then again during the Holdsworth era it appears individual shops were using their own numbering systems and I have even heard tales of builders just stamping on any old numbers! Do you know where original purchase was made?
allend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-15, 11:43 AM   #15
rhm
multimodal commuter
 
rhm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
Posts: 15,738
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by allend View Post
Without pictures of bike, more info ie prox age (even decade a help), model name, how was built up, original shop supplier if known and removal of any doubt re serial number it is difficult to say for sure the meaning of this number. Claud Butler numbers are not always straight forward. If pre Holdsworth it could be '31, '41 or if definite Holdsworth era '61 is possible. Then again during the Holdsworth era it appears individual shops were using their own numbering systems and I have even heard tales of builders just stamping on any old numbers! Do you know where original purchase was made?
Well, it's an Olympic Sprint of the mid 1960s variety. Prugnat lugs if I recall correctly. No oiler on the BB. Fork and brake bridge drilled for brakes.

I can post better photos later. I got it as a bare frame on eBay, no original components, terrible 1980s paint and bogus "Witcomb" decals. It matches photos of 1963-1969? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint frames except that there are no mudguard eyelets. Straight gauge 531 throughout.

Holdsworth also made a Freddie Grubb badged frame that looked like this, sometimes with a different fork crown, sometimes without mud guard eyelets like mine.
__________________
New leather for old saddles.

Last edited by rhm; 02-16-15 at 11:47 AM.
rhm is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-15, 11:48 AM   #16
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 9,242
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
I for one want to encourage Mr. Allend to stick around and take up the gauntlet (that has been cast aside by both Norman Kilgariff and our now-inactive Skip Magnuson) and solve the
"Mystery of the Holdsworth/Holdsworthy Serial Numbers"!
Those two probably had a load of numbers compiled, and untold knowledge, that have now been lost to history...such a shame.
Anyway, here's my two:
Super Mistral, black with red/orange head tube and panel: 001240 (stamped on BB) Skip thought this was a "mid-70s"
Touring, was pea-soup green, now bronze, has vertical Campy DOs, canti brake bosses: 69226 (stamped in a "vertical stack" on BB) seems pretty logical that this might be a '69, but...is it?
and a pic of the Touring's serial number "stack"
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Hldswrth-serial.jpg (76.0 KB, 16 views)
unworthy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-15, 03:10 PM   #17
verktyg 
verktyg
 
verktyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Bikes: Current favorites: 1988 Peugeot Birraritz, 1984 Gitane Super Corsa, 1981 Bianchi Campione Del Mondo, 1992 Paramount OS, 1990 Bianchi Mondiale, 1988 Colnago Technos, 1985 RalieghUSA Team Pro, 1973 Holdsworth
Posts: 1,793
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
I have 3 Holdsworths:

1973 W.F. Holdsworth Competizone in Team Kit SN 0014




1973 Professional - still a bare frame SN 35024




1984 753 SN 841117 AC (Bit of a mystery frame. Holdsworth only listed 753 frames for a year or two in the late 70s. This is made of 2nd generation 753R)




The 1973 Professional is probably the only valid SN to add to the data base.

verktyg

Chas.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Holdsworth1973Competetizone 003.jpg (104.7 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg Holdsworth1973ProfessionalRightSide 2.jpg (103.3 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg Holdsworth1984-753 001.jpg (105.6 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg Holdsworth1973Professional 007.jpg (105.0 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg WFHoldsworth1974Competizone.jpg (39.4 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg 1984Holdworth753 005.jpg (86.5 KB, 34 views)
__________________
Things aren't always what the seem... Don't believe everything you think!

Chas.

Last edited by verktyg; 02-16-15 at 03:15 PM.
verktyg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-15, 10:57 PM   #18
allend
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Halifax, NS, Canada
Bikes: '51 Holdsworth Sirocco, '65 Holdsworth Typhoon, '68 Claud Butler
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Members,

Thanks for the flattery, but I do not claim to be an expert. What I have learned re Holdsworths and Claud Butlers has been gleaned from sites I am sure most are aware of as Norman Kilgariff's site, Classic Lightweights and Classic Rendezvous. I did recently spend a good amount of time collecting a "pile" of mainly Holdsworth variant Claud Butler numbers trying to brake the "Enigma Code" and in process make sense of my new Claud's serial number. I have summarized everything I have learned in the dissertation under the following Flickr photo:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/767624...7648723035788/
You should be able to fine tune your frames' age estimates. However difficulty arises with some serial numbers that do not fit into any recognizable pattern and it is impossible to answer without conjecture. I am interested in acquiring frame numbers especially Holdsworth variant Claud's with accurate pedigree. Some of the answers may become clear with time.

Cheers, Doug

Last edited by allend; 02-18-15 at 06:44 AM. Reason: grammar
allend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-15, 07:16 AM   #19
rhm
multimodal commuter
 
rhm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
Posts: 15,738
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Hey Doug,
a few points...
1. this is the internet and
2. you've done more research than most of us and
3. you've published your results (see point no. 1 above) and
4. provided suitable disclaimers here, so
5. You're the expert.

Sorry, but that's the way it is. Done deal !
__________________
New leather for old saddles.
rhm is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-15, 08:27 AM   #20
Bianchigirll 
Bianchi Goddess
 
Bianchigirll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Camp Hill, PA
Bikes: Too many to list here check my signature.
Posts: 22,434
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhm View Post
@allend, this thread is many years old... and the guy who started it only ever posted 29 times; I'd guess he's moved on.

Nonetheless, since it's bumped anyway, what would you say to the serial number 1492 on the BB and fork steerer of a Holdsworth-made Claud Butler?
This thread was actually the OPs last post period!
__________________
Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto, '90 Campione del Fausto Giamondi Specialisma Italiano Mundo, '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '86 Volpe, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '09 Motobecane SOLD, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape
Bianchigirll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-15, 09:53 AM   #21
jeirvine 
Senior Member
 
jeirvine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Bethesda/Baltimore MD
Bikes: Too many to count. No wait: eight. I have eight bikes.
Posts: 2,163
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
I have a ca 1981 Hodsworth Special. Don't know if the SN would be of interest, but I can look it up and post if you like.
__________________
The man who dies with the most toys…is dead. - Rootboy
jeirvine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-15, 12:57 PM   #22
allend
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Halifax, NS, Canada
Bikes: '51 Holdsworth Sirocco, '65 Holdsworth Typhoon, '68 Claud Butler
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Sure, send the SN along. Do you have any other dating info, pics? Thanks to others for numbers as well. D
allend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-15, 08:31 AM   #23
Wileyone 
Senior Member
 
Wileyone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: GWN
Bikes:
Posts: 551
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
I have an odd Holdsworth serial number 67117K (Shop Bike??) it has been repainted with new decals applied. It has sloping front forks centerpull brake hanger Campy dropouts. Owner said it was originally yellow and purchased in the mid to late 60's. These are all the pics I have at the moment.





Last edited by Wileyone; 02-21-15 at 08:39 AM.
Wileyone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-15, 08:38 AM   #24
Wileyone 
Senior Member
 
Wileyone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: GWN
Bikes:
Posts: 551
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Wileyone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-15, 08:47 AM   #25
Wileyone 
Senior Member
 
Wileyone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: GWN
Bikes:
Posts: 551
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
http://
Wileyone is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:45 AM.