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  1. #1
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    Need help dating a Holdsworth frame.

    The serial number is 74826 and it it has three brazed on cable guides on the top tube. When were braze ons first used? It has been repainted so I don't know the model. I have been told that it might be a 1975 Italia.

  2. #2
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
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    Brazed rear brake cable guides replaced clips during the 1970s.

    I wish I knew how Holdsworth serial numbers map to production dates.
    "Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
    Capo [dschaw'-poe]: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger, S/N 42624
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  3. #3
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
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    Maybe you've already seen Norman Kilgariff's website devoted to Holdsworth/Holdsworthy, but here it is just in case:
    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nkilgariff/
    He used to take serial number question emails, but has shut down that service due to a flood of them, I guess. Since he links to Yellow Jersey in Madison, WI, maybe they can be of service...or maybe you can get a clue from the catalogs scanned in Norman's site...good luck to ya!

  4. #4
    SkipM Skip Magnuson's Avatar
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    I have a Holdsworth and because of my interest in these bikes, I've collected about 45 serial numbers and sometimes can come close to pinning down a year of mfg.

  5. #5
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Great frame, but dude, wouldn't you rather date women?
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  6. #6
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
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    Yow! That is the FIRST any of us have ever heard that joke...

  7. #7
    Dr.Deltron
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    Great frame, but dude, wouldn't you rather date women?
    I was gonna say he needed to buy it a couple of good margaritas first!

  8. #8
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unworthy1
    Yow! That is the FIRST any of us have ever heard that joke...
    What, you want me to be original too? Tough crowd.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  9. #9
    GDN26
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    About your Holdsworth numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Magnuson View Post
    I have a Holdsworth and because of my interest in these bikes, I've collected about 45 serial numbers and sometimes can come close to pinning down a year of mfg.
    I have frame number 6497. Any ideas on the date? Pictures here if it helps
    http://ludicrousexploits.blogspot.com/

  10. #10
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
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    There's a pic in Norman's site that shows the same badge as yours, and states:
    "The pre-war Holdsworth brass rectangular badge, with a dark background, re-appeared late 1946 or 1947 as shown on Doug Smiths original finish 1947 La Quelda."
    So it seems that this "Worthy" brass badge was both pre- and post-war...maybe Skip will see your post and have some info based on the serial number. It clearly seems to be an early bike, but I can't date it exactly.
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  11. #11
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    Hello WF Holdsworth,
    If the serial number is correct it does not fit the quite well known Holdsworthy Factory sequence. The smaller WF Holdsworth Putney shop from 1965 to 1975 used a numbering system that began with two digits signifying year of build. Therefore the serial number 74826 could very well signify a 1974 Italia.
    Doug

  12. #12
    rhm
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    @allend, this thread is many years old... and the guy who started it only ever posted 29 times; I'd guess he's moved on.

    Nonetheless, since it's bumped anyway, what would you say to the serial number 1492 on the BB and fork steerer of a Holdsworth-made Claud Butler?

  13. #13
    slow as I ever was Ex Pres's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allend View Post
    Hello WF Holdsworth,
    If the serial number is correct it does not fit the quite well known Holdsworthy Factory sequence. The smaller WF Holdsworth Putney shop from 1965 to 1975 used a numbering system that began with two digits signifying year of build. Therefore the serial number 74826 could very well signify a 1974 Italia.
    Doug
    Well, I guess my Record (best guess 1973) with a ser# of 37478 wasn't built at Putney

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhm View Post
    @allend, this thread is many years old... and the guy who started it only ever posted 29 times; I'd guess he's moved on.

    Nonetheless, since it's bumped anyway, what would you say to the serial number 1492 on the BB and fork steerer of a Holdsworth-made Claud Butler?
    Without pictures of bike, more info ie approx age (even decade a help), model name, how was built up, original shop supplier if known and removal of any doubt re serial number it is difficult to say for sure the meaning of this number. Claud Butler numbers are not always straight forward. If pre Holdsworth it could be '31, '41 or if definite Holdsworth era '61 is possible. Then again during the Holdsworth era it appears individual shops were using their own numbering systems and I have even heard tales of builders just stamping on any old numbers! Do you know where original purchase was made?

  15. #15
    rhm
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    Quote Originally Posted by allend View Post
    Without pictures of bike, more info ie prox age (even decade a help), model name, how was built up, original shop supplier if known and removal of any doubt re serial number it is difficult to say for sure the meaning of this number. Claud Butler numbers are not always straight forward. If pre Holdsworth it could be '31, '41 or if definite Holdsworth era '61 is possible. Then again during the Holdsworth era it appears individual shops were using their own numbering systems and I have even heard tales of builders just stamping on any old numbers! Do you know where original purchase was made?
    Well, it's an Olympic Sprint of the mid 1960s variety. Prugnat lugs if I recall correctly. No oiler on the BB. Fork and brake bridge drilled for brakes.

    I can post better photos later. I got it as a bare frame on eBay, no original components, terrible 1980s paint and bogus "Witcomb" decals. It matches photos of 1963-1969? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint frames except that there are no mudguard eyelets. Straight gauge 531 throughout.

    Holdsworth also made a Freddie Grubb badged frame that looked like this, sometimes with a different fork crown, sometimes without mud guard eyelets like mine.
    Last edited by rhm; 02-16-15 at 10:47 AM.

  16. #16
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
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    I for one want to encourage Mr. Allend to stick around and take up the gauntlet (that has been cast aside by both Norman Kilgariff and our now-inactive Skip Magnuson) and solve the
    "Mystery of the Holdsworth/Holdsworthy Serial Numbers"!
    Those two probably had a load of numbers compiled, and untold knowledge, that have now been lost to history...such a shame.
    Anyway, here's my two:
    Super Mistral, black with red/orange head tube and panel: 001240 (stamped on BB) Skip thought this was a "mid-70s"
    Touring, was pea-soup green, now bronze, has vertical Campy DOs, canti brake bosses: 69226 (stamped in a "vertical stack" on BB) seems pretty logical that this might be a '69, but...is it?
    and a pic of the Touring's serial number "stack"
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  17. #17
    verktyg verktyg's Avatar
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    I have 3 Holdsworths:

    1973 W.F. Holdsworth Competizone in Team Kit SN 0014

    Holdsworth1973Competetizone 003.jpg WFHoldsworth1974Competizone.jpg


    1973 Professional - still a bare frame SN 35024

    Holdsworth1973ProfessionalRightSide 2.jpg Holdsworth1973Professional 007.jpg


    1984 753 SN 841117 AC (Bit of a mystery frame. Holdsworth only listed 753 frames for a year or two in the late 70s. This is made of 2nd generation 753R)

    Holdsworth1984-753 001.jpg 1984Holdworth753 005.jpg


    The 1973 Professional is probably the only valid SN to add to the data base.

    verktyg

    Chas.
    Last edited by verktyg; 02-16-15 at 02:15 PM.
    Things aren't always what the seem... Don't believe everything you think!

    Chas.

  18. #18
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    Members,

    Thanks for the flattery, but I do not claim to be an expert. What I have learned re Holdsworths and Claud Butlers has been gleaned from sites I am sure most are aware of as Norman Kilgariff's site, Classic Lightweights and Classic Rendezvous. I did recently spend a good amount of time collecting a "pile" of mainly Holdsworth variant Claud Butler numbers trying to brake the "Enigma Code" and in process make sense of my new Claud's serial number. I have summarized everything I have learned in the dissertation under the following Flickr photo:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/767624...7648723035788/
    You should be able to fine tune your frames' age estimates. However difficulty arises with some serial numbers that do not fit into any recognizable pattern and it is impossible to answer without conjecture. I am interested in acquiring frame numbers especially Holdsworth variant Claud's with accurate pedigree. Some of the answers may become clear with time.

    Cheers, Doug
    Last edited by allend; 02-18-15 at 05:44 AM. Reason: grammar

  19. #19
    rhm
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    Hey Doug,
    a few points...
    1. this is the internet and
    2. you've done more research than most of us and
    3. you've published your results (see point no. 1 above) and
    4. provided suitable disclaimers here, so
    5. You're the expert.

    Sorry, but that's the way it is. Done deal !

  20. #20
    Bianchi Goddess Bianchigirll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhm View Post
    @allend, this thread is many years old... and the guy who started it only ever posted 29 times; I'd guess he's moved on.

    Nonetheless, since it's bumped anyway, what would you say to the serial number 1492 on the BB and fork steerer of a Holdsworth-made Claud Butler?
    This thread was actually the OPs last post period!
    Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto, '90 Campione del Fausto Giamondi Specialisma Italiano Mundo, '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '86 Volpe, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

    Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '09 Motobecane SOLD, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape

  21. #21
    Senior Member jeirvine's Avatar
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    I have a ca 1981 Hodsworth Special. Don't know if the SN would be of interest, but I can look it up and post if you like.
    The man who dies with the most toys…is dead. - Rootboy

  22. #22
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    Sure, send the SN along. Do you have any other dating info, pics? Thanks to others for numbers as well. D

  23. #23
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    I have an odd Holdsworth serial number 67117K (Shop Bike??) it has been repainted with new decals applied. It has sloping front forks centerpull brake hanger Campy dropouts. Owner said it was originally yellow and purchased in the mid to late 60's. These are all the pics I have at the moment.




    Last edited by Wileyone; 02-21-15 at 07:39 AM.

  24. #24
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