Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-21-06, 08:25 AM   #1
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
Thread Starter
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 29,077
Paramount vs Paramount OS

Ok, just have to vent a little because my Paramount OS on ebay didn't sell. Personally, I think the bike is worth about $1,000, but obviously the marketplace disagrees.

Strikes me as somewhat incongruant that a late 80's Paramount OS is worth less than a 70's Paramount. The Paramount OS was actually a technological advance, and the best Paramount ever built. But mid 70's PAramounts, which are not nearly as nice routinely go for over a $1000, in mediocre shape.

And the number of handbuilt Waterford OS Paramounts built has to be way lower than all the regular PAramounts built in the 70's

I think it relates in part to the how old is vintage thread. At 17 years old, it isn't quite vintage. Also, the bike sold originally as a frameset, so there is no set of componets that would be "original" And if you did put a period correct group (7 speed indexed D/A for example) it just doesn't have the cache of Nuevo Record.

I imagine 20 years from now, my bike might be worth something. Apparently right now its not worth as much as Bikes Direct junk.
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-06, 09:18 AM   #2
rhenning
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 2,447
OS Paramounts were not the top of the heap bikes like the 1970s ones were. I have a 1992 OS2 that I paid $125 for and I don't think it had been ridden more than once or twice. It is a wonderful riding bike but it doesn't have the romance my 1974 P10-9 does. Selling price is in the eye of the buyer not the eye of the seller. That is what makes bikes bad investments. Buy them because you love them not because you can make money on them. The problem is that anyone who has a old rusty Varsity thinks its worth $$$ because someone said Schwinns sell for a lot on E-Bay. Some do some don't. Roger
rhenning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-06, 09:32 AM   #3
BobHufford
Keeper of the SLDB
 
BobHufford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Springfield, MO
Bikes: '75 Schwinn Paramount P-10, '86 Ritchey Commando, '87 Schwinn Cimarron, '91 Trek 990, '87 Schwinn High Sierra, '73 Schwinn Super Sport, '4? Schwinn New World, '76 Swing Bike.
Posts: 1,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
And the number of handbuilt Waterford OS Paramounts built has to be way lower than all the regular PAramounts built in the 70's.
I dunno ... this might be a toss up. This chart is incomplete, but excluding the Bike Boom year of 1972, the '60s and '70s really didn't have a huge output of Paramounts (when you compare it to the late '80s).

http://www.waterfordbikes.com/site/c...para_stats.php

As far as value, you're up against Baby Boomer nostalgia and deep pockets. Your time will come ... (hopefully).
BobHufford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-06, 09:38 AM   #4
BobHufford
Keeper of the SLDB
 
BobHufford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Springfield, MO
Bikes: '75 Schwinn Paramount P-10, '86 Ritchey Commando, '87 Schwinn Cimarron, '91 Trek 990, '87 Schwinn High Sierra, '73 Schwinn Super Sport, '4? Schwinn New World, '76 Swing Bike.
Posts: 1,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhenning
OS Paramounts were not the top of the heap bikes like the 1970s ones were. I have a 1992 OS2 that I paid $125 for and I don't think it had been ridden more than once or twice.
Roger -- The Waterford built OS bikes of the '80s and early '90s were the top bike. The imported "Series" bikes of the '90s were 2nd tier.

http://www.waterfordbikes.com/site/c.../para_8090.php

Bob
BobHufford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-06, 09:42 AM   #5
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
Thread Starter
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 29,077
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhenning
OS Paramounts were not the top of the heap bikes like the 1970s ones were. I have a 1992 OS2 that I paid $125 for and I don't think it had been ridden more than once or twice. It is a wonderful riding bike but it doesn't have the romance my 1974 P10-9 does.

You're comparing apples to oranges, the OS2 was an asian machine built bike. A Waterford built silver brazed OS was the top of the heap. Not only top of Schwinn's line, it was also the best Paramount ever built. Moreover, a 1989 Paramount OS has a much better claim to be the best frame available from any manufacturer in 1989, than a 1974 Paramount does against other 1974 bikes.

Although Roger's confusion is precisely the reason I was p.o.'d at Schwinn when they came out with the Series bikes. I knew it back then that they were devaluing my bike.

(FWIW, my opinion isn't totally based on personal bias given that I also own a 1976 Paramount.)

I think the market differential is more explained by your other points, romance, and nostalgia.
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-06, 10:21 AM   #6
onetwentyeight 
blah
 
onetwentyeight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oakland, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 5,573
you can sum it up in one word.... "nervex"

Last edited by onetwentyeight; 12-21-06 at 11:04 AM.
onetwentyeight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-06, 10:45 AM   #7
rhenning
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 2,447
I would still say they were not top of the heap. By the time they were built you could get many other bikes of equal or better quality. Treks had Carbon and Aluminum. Others had the first titianum bikes in large numbers. My comment that I feel is most important is to not buy a bike as an investment but because you love it. One of many cases in point are Schwinn's repro Phantoms and Krates. Because of the large numbers built I doubt they will achieve their purchase price in the near future. The investors/speculaters I feel have spoiled the market for collectors like myself. I do not buy bikes because sometime in the futrue they may be worth something but because I love them. Roger

Last edited by rhenning; 12-21-06 at 11:02 AM.
rhenning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-06, 10:49 AM   #8
beakgeek
Schwinn is In
 
beakgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Bikes: 2000 Softride Solo
Posts: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by onetwentyeight
you can some it up in one word.... "nervex"

+1

Nervex lugs are like crack.
beakgeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-06, 12:14 PM   #9
sykerocker 
Senior Member
 
sykerocker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Montpelier, VA
Bikes: The keepers: 1960 Raleigh Lenton Grand Prix, 1968 Ranger, 1969 Magneet Sprint, 1971 Gitane Tour de France, 1973 Raleigh Tourist, 1973 Lambert, 1973 Schwinn Super Sport, 2 - 1988 Rossins
Posts: 3,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
I think the market differential is more explained by your other points, romance, and nostalgia.
I'll also add in the term "baby boomer". The 70's Paramounts sell for so much partially because that's what all the guys my age (mid-50's) wanted back then, and there's the desire to re-live one's unretrieveable youth.

I see this all the time in vintage Japanese motorcycles. A clean 1971 Suzuki GT500 (two cylinder, two stroke, excellent touring bike in it's day) languishes at $1000.00 asking, while a rolling basket case Honda Super 90 (single cylinder, absolute top speed of 60mph, good for riding around the neighborhood, period) sells easily at $800.00.

Guess which one was the first (and possibly last) motorcycle for a lot of baby boomers back then?

Bottom line: Nothing Schwinn is more desirable than a pre-1980's Paramount. Fair? Who cares? The market speaks, and if you want to sell badly enough, you have to price your product accordingly.

I'd just love to own a Paramount, and I'm not all that picky about what year.
__________________
Syke

"No wonder we keep testing positive in their bicycle races. Everyone looks like they're full of testosterone when they're surrounded by Frenchmen." ---Argus Hamilton
sykerocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-06, 01:45 PM   #10
Walter
SLJ 6/8/65-5/2/07
 
Walter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: SE Florida, USA aka the Treasure Coast
Bikes:
Posts: 5,386
I watched your auction and agree with your selling point that the Paramount is not only an excellent Paramount but also a good way to get into a Waterford for a substantial discount.

However, I also agree that it's the truly older Paramounts that bring good eBay money, mostly for the reasons above.

Truth is your bike would probably sell for more if it was decalled Waterford instead of Schwinn Paramount. Such is the price of nostalgia.

Btw, I really wish I had the money b/c I'd love a Waterford.


__________________
“Life is not one damned thing after another. Life is one damned thing over and over.”
Edna St. Vincent Millay
Walter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-06, 02:26 PM   #11
BobHufford
Keeper of the SLDB
 
BobHufford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Springfield, MO
Bikes: '75 Schwinn Paramount P-10, '86 Ritchey Commando, '87 Schwinn Cimarron, '91 Trek 990, '87 Schwinn High Sierra, '73 Schwinn Super Sport, '4? Schwinn New World, '76 Swing Bike.
Posts: 1,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by sykerocker
Bottom line: Nothing Schwinn is more desirable than a pre-1980's Paramount.
Well, the Sting-Ray Krate folks might argue that and the prices of '30s Aerocycles might have the Ballooners making their point as well, but for Lightweights, yes ...
BobHufford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-06, 02:41 PM   #12
fender1
Senior Member
 
fender1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Berwyn PA
Bikes: I hate bikes!
Posts: 5,486
Quote:
Originally Posted by onetwentyeight
you can sum it up in one word.... "nervex"
Or the diffenece in perception of a 1973 Porche Carrera & 1983 Porche Carrera. One is "cooler" than the other, eventhogh the "newer "one had better technology.
fender1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-06, 03:31 PM   #13
sekaijin
Senior Member
 
sekaijin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Bikes: 2000 Litespeed Classic, 1984 Schwinn LeTour, 1998 Gary Fisher Marlin, 1969 Hercules, 1977 Sekai 5000 Superlite, 1993 Koga-Myata TerraLiner, 2013 Trek Farley.
Posts: 1,140
Merlin, does this mean you're off the hook and your wife will let you keep the bike?
sekaijin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-06, 05:43 PM   #14
cs1
Senior Member
 
cs1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Clev Oh
Bikes: Specialized, Schwinn
Posts: 6,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Ok, just have to vent a little because my Paramount OS on ebay didn't sell. Personally, I think the bike is worth about $1,000, but obviously the marketplace disagrees.

Strikes me as somewhat incongruant that a late 80's Paramount OS is worth less than a 70's Paramount. The Paramount OS was actually a technological advance, and the best Paramount ever built. But mid 70's PAramounts, which are not nearly as nice routinely go for over a $1000, in mediocre shape.

And the number of handbuilt Waterford OS Paramounts built has to be way lower than all the regular PAramounts built in the 70's

I think it relates in part to the how old is vintage thread. At 17 years old, it isn't quite vintage. Also, the bike sold originally as a frameset, so there is no set of componets that would be "original" And if you did put a period correct group (7 speed indexed D/A for example) it just doesn't have the cache of Nuevo Record.

I imagine 20 years from now, my bike might be worth something. Apparently right now its not worth as much as Bikes Direct junk.
Actually, Waterford Paramounts are excellent buys used. They don't hold their value as well as they should. I picked up a 1995 Waterford 1200 with Chorus and 2 wheelsets for under $600 a few years ago on ebay. A best buy in my book. The frame alone would be about $1600 to $1800 new. Maybe you should be buying instead of selling. Good luck

Tim
cs1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-06, 06:22 PM   #15
well biked 
biked well
 
well biked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 7,062
I think the issue here is "used bike" vs. "classic bike." I mean this in no way to take away from the Paramount OS's quality, but as we all know, "used bikes" don't hold their value well. The bikes that are "worth" more are the ones that transcend the status of simply being a "used bike" and enter into the realm of being a "classic" bike. The older Paramounts are the perfect example of this, they have a lot of value because of the intangible quality of being a "classic." On the other hand, lots of very nice, high quality bikes don't have all that much value because they're simply "used bikes." That's my take on it, anyway. I'd say the Paramount OS has a bit of the "classic" intangible going for it, but most people probably think of it as just a nice used bike-

Last edited by well biked; 12-21-06 at 06:47 PM.
well biked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-06, 06:35 PM   #16
mastershake916
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nor~Cal
Bikes:
Posts: 1,691
Personaly when I see the wheels I think new bike.
mastershake916 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-06, 09:07 PM   #17
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
Thread Starter
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 29,077
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhenning
I would still say they were not top of the heap. By the time they were built you could get many other bikes of equal or better quality. Treks had Carbon and Aluminum. Others had the first titianum bikes in large numbers.
I gotta disagree with that assessment. I bought the bike in 1989 because IMHO it was the best racing bike available. The only thing comparable at the time was a Serotta Colorado also with oversized tubing.

There may have been some decent Ti becoming available by 1989, but not as stiff for racing. And CF available at that time was in its infancy.

There is no way an early bonded CF Trek is equal or better quality to a Waterford built OS.

And an 89 OS was clearly superior to bikes like Colnago and Pinarello, Gios, etc. because of the weight and stiffness advantage of oversized tubing.

By contrast, 70's era Paramounts were never better than bikes like Colnagos, and in fact Schwinn created the Waterford Shop because the Paramount was becoming non competitive.

Obviously Older Paramounts have a cache that the market values, but there's no way a 70's Paramount was a better bike than the OS, nor were they better as measured against their peers.
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-06, 04:32 AM   #18
cs1
Senior Member
 
cs1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Clev Oh
Bikes: Specialized, Schwinn
Posts: 6,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Obviously Older Paramounts have a cache that the market values, but there's no way a 70's Paramount was a better bike than the OS, nor were they better as measured against their peers.

Bingo!

Tim
cs1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-06, 08:08 AM   #19
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Bikes: http://www.theheadbadge.com
Posts: 22,744
Quote:
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
You're comparing apples to oranges, the OS2 was an asian machine built bike. A Waterford built silver brazed OS was the top of the heap.
Asian or Waterford OS, '80s or '90s, neither will fetch the same as a Paramount from the glory years - no matter how much we'd like to think our machines are worth (isn't it the sentementality talking in this case?).

Onetwentyeight pretty much DID sum up why the '70s machines are more popular with "Nervex," but I'll add a couple more things: "Schwinn Paramount" downtube logo, "chrome," "Nuovo Record" & "Brooks."

Now, had the "retooled" Paramount of the '80s featured Nervex lugs (painted), the original Schwinn Paramount logo, and Campagnolo Super or C-Record from factory, I dare say that they would have easily became as popular with collectors as the originals, if not more so.

Heck, C-Record-equipped bikes seem to be extremely desireable with deep-pocket collectors - it doesn't particularly seem to matter WHAT the bike may be.

Take care,

-Kurt
__________________
cudak888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-06, 03:38 PM   #20
russdog63
Senior Member
 
russdog63's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kennewick Washington
Bikes: Holdsworth Professional(1984), Medici Pro Strada (mid 80's), Team Raliegh 753 (special build 1987?), Univega Ultraleggera (early 90's or late 80's)
Posts: 192
I saw Merlin's Dura Ace equipped OS Paramount and I believe it is the nicest Paramount that I have seen. It is as nice as any racing bike that you will find from the late 80's or early 90's. I believe the quality is up there with the Dura Ace equipped Motorola and Team 7-11 Merckxs from the same period. However, your bike will probably never bring as much as those bikes because of the nostalgia, prestige, and the collectibility that those Merckx's hold. Collectors of Paramounts seem to have that same feeling for older Paramounts.

I saw someone pay $355 for a junked out Paramount touring frame from the 60's. Decent frame but in my opinion not worth that. There is a lot of bidding on ebay that really makes me wonder.

I think that the value and quality of your bike has just gone unrecognized. Try relisting it after the new year in January or February. I think it is worth more than what was bid.
russdog63 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-06, 03:58 PM   #21
russdog63
Senior Member
 
russdog63's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kennewick Washington
Bikes: Holdsworth Professional(1984), Medici Pro Strada (mid 80's), Team Raliegh 753 (special build 1987?), Univega Ultraleggera (early 90's or late 80's)
Posts: 192
I just had another look at Merlin's bike. I was thinking it had 8 speed Dura Ace from that period. The nine speed is very nice too. The only thing that would make that bike nicer, to me, is to put on 9 speed DA wheels instead of the Kysyriums.
russdog63 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-06, 12:24 AM   #22
alanbikehouston
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 5,251
I understand why folks would pay top dollar for a 1969 Paramount. Hand made in Chicago. Only two or three Schwinn employees did the brazing. As close to a "custom-made" bike as Schwinn ever made.

When Schwinn began using the Paramount name on bikes made in Japan, it caused confusion among buyers. And, some of the Asian-made Paramounts combined bizarre paint schemes with mid-level wheels and components. They were simply mid-price Panasonics with Schwinn decals.

So, E-Bay buyers tend to nervous about the Paramounts made after around 1980. Buyers struggle to figure out which are the "pro level" bikes made in the USA versus the cheaper Asian bikes. And, they start bidding on that "like new" 1969 all-Campy Paramount.
alanbikehouston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-06, 11:25 AM   #23
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 10,672
When Schwinn extended the Paramount name to a tier of bikes rather than the top only, and sourced some elsewhere it did indeed confuse and therefore devalue the top tier bikes.

No one has mentioned that Merlin is keeping the 1976 bike and selling the later Superior oversize frame...

So, it gets beat out by the inferior bike, ?
repechage is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:23 AM.