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  1. #1
    Senior Member fender1's Avatar
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    Paramount ID Help

    Hi All,

    I picked up this Paramount for free or $40 depending on how you slice the deal. I cannot find a serial # or a number on the headbadge. It is a mish-mash of componetry Suntour Superbe Brakes, Shimano derailer, Zeus Crankset, campy seat post etc. It came with a mismatched wheel set Atala Rear hub and a Mavic 501 front, laced to Mavic MA 40's for both. Can anyone venture a geuss as to age? Also the fork looks wrong but it has Campagnoglo fork ends. I am a bit stumped. Please excuse the lousy pics.

    Thanks & Happy Holidays to ALL!!!!


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  2. #2
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
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    The serial number will be on the left rear dropout. The serial number can then be used to determine the date the bike was made by referring to THIS PAGE on the Waterford website.

    Here's a 1971 Paramount serial number.

    Last edited by Scooper; 12-22-06 at 03:39 PM.
    - Stan

  3. #3
    Senior Member fender1's Avatar
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    Scooper,
    Thanks for the reply. I removed the paint on the non-drive side rear drop-out (The frame has be repainted) and there is no serial #. It looks like it might have been removed possibly when the bike was repainted. There is no stamp on the head badge. Judging byt he fact that it has Nervex lugs but not a Nervex bottom bracket lug would you guess maybe early 70's? Also the fork still looks "wrong".

    Thanks

  4. #4
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    The fork looks to be some form of drilled track fork. Something tells me you'll have precious little clearance between the downtube and the tire...if any.

    Possibly a Paramount track fork, possibly not, for I can't remember what a P-mount track fork looks like.

    I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say it is mid-late '70s, as it has built-in cable routing over the BB. Then again, what do I know? I'm no Paramount expert. I have a '61 and that is about as much as I know about 'em.

    Well, that's a fine $40 or free mess (take your pick) you got yourself into. I'm sure that by the time you finish it, you'll hate the damn bike with all your heart and soul, like I do my '61...

    -Kurt

  5. #5
    Chrome Freak Rabid Koala's Avatar
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    The forks do not appear to be from a Paramount.
    1971 Paramount P-13 Chrome
    1973 Paramount P-15 Opaque Blue
    1973 Gitane Tour De France
    1974 Raleigh Professional
    1991 Waterford Paramount
    Litespeed Tuscany
    Holland Titanium

  6. #6
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fender1
    Scooper,
    Thanks for the reply. I removed the paint on the non-drive side rear drop-out (The frame has be repainted) and there is no serial #. It looks like it might have been removed possibly when the bike was repainted. There is no stamp on the head badge. Judging byt he fact that it has Nervex lugs but not a Nervex bottom bracket lug would you guess maybe early 70's? Also the fork still looks "wrong".

    Thanks
    I don't believe Schwinn ever stamped the Paramount head badges with a date code, and find it strange that the frame doesn't have a serial number. The fork doesn't look original, as the one supplied with it would have had a Nervex Professional Racing crown.

    Just looking at your photos, I'm pretty sure it had to have been built in the sixties or seventies. It would probably have originally had mostly Campagnolo components (hubs, crankset, BB, derailleurs, headset) and Cinelli stem and bars. Brakes would likely have been Weinmann center-pulls, but Campagnolo side-pulls were an extra cost option beginning in the late sixties.

    Bob Hufford, with substantial help from Eric Amlie and others, has put together a great website with lots of original Schwinn catalogs and other literature HERE that may help you figure out when it was made.

    Good luck.
    - Stan

  7. #7
    blah onetwentyeight's Avatar
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    paramount track forks came drilled from the factory. here is a picture of one.



    main difference is the circle cut outs on the side.

  8. #8
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onetwentyeight
    paramount track forks came drilled from the factory. here is a picture of one.

    main difference is the circle cut outs on the side.
    Adam, the Paramount specific catalogs and order forms offered the option of factory drilled forks on the P14 (in 1972, drilling the hole was an extra $1.25). You're right about the track bikes having a different fork crown.

    Here's a 1964 chrome P14 without the drilled fork and clearly showing the cutout on the crown side.

    Last edited by Scooper; 12-23-06 at 02:54 PM.
    - Stan

  9. #9
    Senior Member fender1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888
    The fork looks to be some form of drilled track fork. Something tells me you'll have precious little clearance between the downtube and the tire...if any.

    Possibly a Paramount track fork, possibly not, for I can't remember what a P-mount track fork looks like.

    I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say it is mid-late '70s, as it has built-in cable routing over the BB. Then again, what do I know? I'm no Paramount expert. I have a '61 and that is about as much as I know about 'em.

    Well, that's a fine $40 or free mess (take your pick) you got yourself into. I'm sure that by the time you finish it, you'll hate the damn bike with all your heart and soul, like I do my '61...

    -Kurt
    I came with a Merlin (Bob Jackson) & and Specialized Aluminum lugged carbon fiber road bike, all 3 for $240.
    It makes the basket case Paramount easier to swallow! Thank for all of the help.

  10. #10
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fender1
    I came with a Merlin (Bob Jackson) & and Specialized Aluminum lugged carbon fiber road bike, all 3 for $240.
    It makes the basket case Paramount easier to swallow! Thank for all of the help.
    I'll take the basket-case Paramount off your hands for $60 then

    (Who said that? I'm supposed to hate Paramounts!)

    -Kurt

  11. #11
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888
    (Who said that? I'm supposed to hate Paramounts!)
    Aww, Kurt, we know better; that's just trash talk.

    No doubt about it, though, the basket case was a helluva deal.
    - Stan

  12. #12
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooper
    Aww, Kurt, we know better; that's just trash talk.

    No doubt about it, though, the basket case was a helluva deal.
    Scooper, if someone can just get me a corncob freewheel that doesn't have significant wear on it (and maybe a decent '61-era Campag Gran Sport RD, one might be able to influence my opinion on that.

    Pity too, as I wanted to ride that bike today - a rainshower came through early today, and the resulting ride on the wet roads made one wish for fenders...

    Take care,

    -Kurt

  13. #13
    Senior Member M-theory's Avatar
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    I think that's one of the rare, early 80's "Elite" Paramount frames built by Marc Mueller. It's strange somebody left it to rot... they were a small fortune in the early 80's.

    From Waterford:

    Marc was put in charge of re-building Paramount - almost from scratch. He started out by retooling the department including a new brazing fixture and alignment table. In June of '80, the company decided it needed the Paramount back but that they would have to move out of the Chicago factory. Marc's first bikes were built for Eric Heiden and the 7/11 team in 1980.

    That year, Schwinn brought back the Paramount as a super-custom bike - "anything you want" for the then outrageous sum of $3,000. These became known as the "Elite" Paramounts. By 1981, enough demand had built up to justify bigger plans. Marc got the go-ahead to build a factory which, after a considerable search, landed in Waterford, Wisconsin.

  14. #14
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-theory
    I think that's one of the rare, early 80's "Elite" Paramount frames built by Marc Mueller. It's strange somebody left it to rot... they were a small fortune in the early 80's.
    Nope, this is not an Elite. The Elites used plain Italian-type lugs. Neither does this thing have any evidence of the Elite decal set.

    I ran into some photos of a gold Elite Paramount recently, and the difference is apparent - will have to dig those photos up later. I must say they have their own unique look that is just as fetching as the Nervex-lugged originals. Something similar to the Cinelli Super Corsa, in fact.

    Take care,

    -Kurt

    P.S.: Now that I look at it, that fork crown looks strangely like a drilled variant of a Paramount tandem fork. Can you confirm whether that fork was drilled or not? Pull the front caliper and check for chrome flaking.
    Last edited by cudak888; 12-23-06 at 05:00 PM.

  15. #15
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
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    Here are some photos of a 1981 Marc Muller "Elite" from the '81 catalog. This one is the touring model with Campy triple (essentially a P15). Marc used painted Henry James lugs.





    - Stan

  16. #16
    Keeper of the SLDB BobHufford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888
    I ran into some photos of a gold Elite Paramount recently, and the difference is apparent - will have to dig those photos up later. I must say they have their own unique look that is just as fetching as the Nervex-lugged originals. Something similar to the Cinelli Super Corsa, in fact.
    Are these the ones you're thinking of?

    http://homepage.mac.com/bigalips/PhotoAlbum2.html

  17. #17
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    That's the bike, Bob. Chrome lugs (and rear triangle) were available as well, obviously.

    Beautiful bike, possibly even nicer - in its own way - then the originals. The Golden Arrow groupset is an absolute insult to it though! Campagnolo NR, SR, or C-Record only!

    -Kurt

  18. #18
    Keeper of the SLDB BobHufford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooper
    I don't believe Schwinn ever stamped the Paramount head badges with a date code
    Stan -- they stamped them from 1976 to at least 1979 (I'm not sure if the Waterford built bikes were stamped in the badges or not). This started with the Le Tours in late '73 and was a company wide edict in '76.

    http://home.mchsi.com/~thufford/schwinn122675.jpg

    You can see it in this Paramount badge in the catalog in '78.

    http://www.geocities.com/sldbconsume.../78ccpg05b.jpg

    Bob

  19. #19
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobHufford
    Stan -- they stamped them from 1976 to at least 1979 (I'm not sure if the Waterford built bikes were stamped in the badges or not). This started with the Le Tours in late '73 and was a company wide edict in '76.

    You can see it in this Paramount badge in the catalog in '78.

    Bob
    Right you are, Bob. I stand corrected.
    - Stan

  20. #20
    Senior Member fender1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888
    Nope, this is not an Elite. The Elites used plain Italian-type lugs. Neither does this thing have any evidence of the Elite decal set.

    I ran into some photos of a gold Elite Paramount recently, and the difference is apparent - will have to dig those photos up later. I must say they have their own unique look that is just as fetching as the Nervex-lugged originals. Something similar to the Cinelli Super Corsa, in fact.

    Take care,

    -Kurt

    P.S.: Now that I look at it, that fork crown looks strangely like a drilled variant of a Paramount tandem fork. Can you confirm whether that fork was drilled or not? Pull the front caliper and check for chrome flaking.
    The fork does not look drilled. It looks like it was manufactured that way. Can I use your "track Fork" idea if I sell on e-bay? That may make the price jump for a fixed gear enthusiast!

    I could list as "Paramount Road Bike with Track fork: The best of both worlds!!!! All day riding comfort geometry, combined with the twitchy, unforgiving ride you need for the street!" BIN $750 for this truly one of a kind vinatge ,531 lugged, steel classic frame. You won't see this again in your lifetime!! !

  21. #21
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fender1
    The fork does not look drilled. It looks like it was manufactured that way. Can I use your "track Fork" idea if I sell on e-bay? That may make the price jump for a fixed gear enthusiast!

    I could list as "Paramount Road Bike with Track fork: The best of both worlds!!!! All day riding comfort geometry, combined with the twitchy, unforgiving ride you need for the street!" BIN $750 for this truly one of a kind vinatge ,531 lugged, steel classic frame. You won't see this again in your lifetime!! !
    No, you cannot use the "track fork" idea for eBay, for we still don't know if it is a genuine track fork - you CAN say that the unknown-brand fork has track geometry though, and WILL give the bike handling similar to that of a track bike, in other words, the handling quality of steering a basketball...

    Hell, you'd probably be better off selling the fork seperately - for god's sake, it'll probably sell more then the frame!

    I'll offer you $50 for the bare frame without the fork...$50 bucks, my friend, and I'll even look the other way when you list the fork as being genuine Pista.

    Be a pal and help a BF buddy out - after all, I have all the NR components, minus the crankset, that need to go on this machine - in matching condition

    Take care,

    -Kurt

  22. #22
    Senior Member fender1's Avatar
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    Thanks for the generous offer, but Ill have to pass. I would not want to be held responsible for inflicitng another "Paramount Project" on you.

    On a more serious note would the fork have any kind of identifying mark on the inside? Also would a pic with the wheel on help in possibly determinig what type (track/road etc.) of fork it might be?

  23. #23
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fender1
    Thanks for the generous offer, but Ill have to pass. I would not want to be held responsible for inflicitng another "Paramount Project" on you.

    On a more serious note would the fork have any kind of identifying mark on the inside? Also would a pic with the wheel on help in possibly determinig what type (track/road etc.) of fork it might be?
    Wrong things to tell a vintage bicycle masochist. I'd throw those Campag derailers - mentioned in the other post - in the deal for nada

    Well, if it IS a Paramount fork, it should have a serial number inside - unless it is a genuine replacement fork. Pull it out and have a look - can't hurt.

    -Kurt

  24. #24
    Senior Member fender1's Avatar
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    Kurt,

    You were right! I pulled the fork and it does have a serial number. It is stamped D742711. I included a few new pictures. The front wheel looks to have enough clearance. Also there was shim inside the fork for the head set. The ball bearings in the head set are in retaining rings, not loose. PLease see attached pics.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

  25. #25
    Chrome Freak Rabid Koala's Avatar
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    OK, I stand corrected about the fork.
    1971 Paramount P-13 Chrome
    1973 Paramount P-15 Opaque Blue
    1973 Gitane Tour De France
    1974 Raleigh Professional
    1991 Waterford Paramount
    Litespeed Tuscany
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