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Old 12-28-06, 01:21 PM   #1
doco
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Paramount Question

just saw this on ebay and I am curious...it's too big for me but was wondering is this frame really as rare as the seller claims...I see "rare" on ebay too much

also any guess's how much it will go for..it is such a sweet looking frameset

http://cgi.ebay.com/rare-1961-Schwin...QQcmdZViewItem
eBay: rare 1961 Schwinn Paramount bicycle FRAME and FORK (item 290066200744 end time Jan-03-07 21:10:24 PST)
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Old 12-28-06, 01:40 PM   #2
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Never seen a Schwinn painted that way, but it was "approved" by Waterford.... Early Paramounts can fetch a handsome sum, what hurts this auction is the high starting bid, action will come late, perhaps in the last 15 seconds, if it does.

I would conjecture a "chromed" frame painted over.

To outfit this bike fully, 151 cranks, steel Record rear mech., cable stop front, pre Record hubs... will cost quite a bit. If the parts are to be found on the open market today, it could drive up the full bike price to $4k or more, and the parts would not be NOS.

That is the trick when rehabbing an old bike like this, the frame looks showroom new, (or better) worn parts just do not look congruent.

I am helping a friend with a '63 Paramount, we have been lucky in locating bits, but it will cost over $3.5k probably when done and non worthy parts sold off.
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Old 12-28-06, 01:47 PM   #3
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the secret is to ride it a bunch and chip up the paint to match the used componenets.
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Old 12-28-06, 02:24 PM   #4
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The term "rare" is relative, but the seller is right about the production numbers in 1961 and the serial number does confirm it's a '61. $1300 is serious money, especially when you consider how much more the buyer will have to spend on NOS Campy components to make it rideable with the period correct group. The fork rake, chainstay length, and eyelets would seem to indicate it's a P11 "Tourist", not a P12 "Road Racer".

The Waterford website has some interesting pages devoted to Schwinn Paramount history.

The Paramount pictured on page 2 of the 1961 catalog (courtesy of Eric Amlie and Bob Hufford) has the seat tube decal; the eBay bike doesn't. Since the seat tube shows chrome where the decal should be, repechage is probably right about it being a chrome plated frame.
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Last edited by Scooper; 12-28-06 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 12-28-06, 04:30 PM   #5
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thanks for the info guys, the chrome was what had me wondering....that explains the chrome bottom stay cluster, I have never seen this before
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Old 12-28-06, 06:25 PM   #6
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That frame is serious...and worth $1200. The painting and decaling at Waterford was easily $700. For the time and money the seller put into it...it's probably even a bit of a loss at that price.

NOS stuff would be very difficult to find and uber-expensive but used '61 Campy Record (yes Record started in '58) is around on eBay and not outrageous. From there a Dremel does wonders and can make it look brand new. You could get the group for $600-$800 leaving yourself with a $2k bike that is second to none and a major prize.
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Old 12-29-06, 03:43 AM   #7
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$600 to $800 for the parts... lets see:

Headset, correct vintage used $100. min.
front der. cable stop type $150. to $225. (bronze arm, screw on pivots)
#624 cable guide at BB $60 (cable stop LH, tube guide RH)
NOS campy bolts for cable clamps $15.
Pre Record hubs and skewers, $150 to $250.
Spokes, chrome plated Unions $30 per set or more.
Weinmann tubular rims or Schereens (special order option) $100 to $400.
Tires visually acceptable, $60. period correct $200.
Brooks Pro or B-17 saddle, near date range $100
Correct Campy seat post $100
AS seat binder bolt $60, (Good shape or poor refinished)
Dropout adjusters, $25. (correct metal end type, not reproductions)
Brakeset, $20 to $80 (might take two cheap sets to make up one happy set)
Bars and stem, $50 to $100. can go higher depending on the stem length.
Shift levers, $20 (eagle eye ebay watching, for correct period)
Shift cables and housing, $20, Campagnolo only.
Freewheel and chain, NOS $80 to $100.
BB and cranks used $80, expect to pay $80 to $130 for each chainring if NOS desired.
NOS cranks doubtful
BB set thin cups used good, $80.
Pedals, Campagnolo, small typography, with strap loops, $125. to $200.
Toe clips, Christophe, correct logo, $35, doubtful to find anything but used.
Straps $20, NOS

No labor costs in above, even at the low end it is well past $1200. And one will have to miss a few auctions to keep the budget sane.

I quickly detailed above as many friends' often forget that its the small parts that can creep up the total. Or you make a compromise(s) chainring bolts, dust caps... forgot about bar tape and the tool kit. And the rear mech!

Do remember one does it for the end result, not for profit, Above bike will be worth less than the sum of its parts.
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Old 12-29-06, 08:45 AM   #8
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Yes, I concur that it's a paint-over-chrome frame, remarkably similar in color and concept to some of the Bianchi Specialissimas of the same era.

Toeclips do not have to run $35; I paid about $10 per pair of Campagnolo aluminums.
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Old 12-29-06, 09:51 AM   #9
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Yes, one can substitute parts, Campagnolo toe clips were almost two decades later than this frame.

Do you want a "rider" or a bike restored? Or, will assemble as best as possible until the "correct" parts turn up?

All critical wallet decisions, but with the min. bid for this frame, it would not indicate a "rider" bike.
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Old 12-29-06, 09:58 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by repechage
$600 to $800 for the parts... lets see:
Must dissagree on a few points:

front der. cable stop type $150. to $225. (bronze arm, screw on pivots)
^
Proper FD for this machine is a rod-operated Grand Sport. About $15 for a nice one, probably $50 for NOS.

#624 cable guide at BB $60 (cable stop LH, tube guide RH)
^
Can get these for $5 at one of the LBS's if I have to, pretty sure they have #624s in addition to some others

Pre Record hubs and skewers, $150 to $250.
^
I traded a front for components about $20 in value.

Spokes, chrome plated Unions $30 per set or more.
^
Spokes are where I draw the line on originality. Use new DT stainless.

Weinmann tubular rims or Schereens (special order option) $100 to $400.
^
They used Weinmann 27" clinchers.

Correct Campy seat post $100
^
I got mine in a trade - paid equivilant to about $25 for it.

Brakeset, $20 to $80 (might take two cheap sets to make up one happy set)
^
$30-150 is more like it for those older, engraved Weinmann 999s.


Shift levers, $20 (eagle eye ebay watching, for correct period)

^
Reminds me - just what IS the differerence between the original Gran Sport (not Nuovo Gran Sport) and NR downtube shifters? They look virtually identical, save for slightly different sizing of the "Patent Campagnolo" lettering.

Shift cables and housing, $20, Campagnolo only.
^
I used teflon-lined Shimano cable in grey. Looks the same period, and nobody knows the difference. Doubt of '70s/'80s Campagnolo cable would look just right either.

BB and cranks used $80, expect to pay $80 to $130 for each chainring if NOS desired.
^
Too low a price, both for a BB/crank combo of the stock, steel Stronglight Competition, or the Record 151's w/BB. Looking at $100-$150 for the Stronglight Competition w/BB; $150-250 for the Record 151's.

NOS cranks doubtful
^
I dissagree. They're available, if you want to add $600 to the mix.

BB set thin cups used good, $80.
^
Campag. Record or Stronglight Competition?

Pedals, Campagnolo, small typography, with strap loops, $125. to $200.
^
Or Lytards for $50-100, if you use the Stronglight Competition crankset.

and one thing you forgot on the list:

Campagnolo Gran Sport RD, correct variant. NOS, $225-$250; used, $50-150.

Take care,

-Kurt
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Old 12-29-06, 11:09 AM   #11
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[QUOTE=cudak888]Must dissagree on a few points:

front der. cable stop type $150. to $225. (bronze arm, screw on pivots)
^
Proper FD for this machine is a rod-operated Grand Sport. About $15 for a nice one, probably $50 for NOS.

Repechage replies: the 1052/1 was in the 1958 catalog, '60 and '61 p'mounts I have seen as original had them.

#624 cable guide at BB $60 (cable stop LH, tube guide RH)
^
Can get these for $5 at one of the LBS's if I have to, pretty sure they have #624s in addition to some others

You are correct, double checked item is #626, if you can find them for $20 in reasonable shape I will buy three.

Pre Record hubs and skewers, $150 to $250.
^
I traded a front for components about $20 in value.

A bike needs a front AND rear.

Spokes, chrome plated Unions $30 per set or more.
^
Spokes are where I draw the line on originality. Use new DT stainless.

Save money, lose originality, I do the same often but when one starts with a big dollar bike frame why cut a small corner?

Weinmann tubular rims or Schereens (special order option) $100 to $400.
^
They used Weinmann 27" clinchers.

Not all, best to check the frame, they cam with either 700c tubulars or 27" clinchers, frame geometry differed depending on buyer order choice. My friend cannot put brakes on his '61 with 27" wheels, would have to use "short reach" decades later.

Correct Campy seat post $100
^
I got mine in a trade - paid equivilant to about $25 for it.

I was discussing open market, if you take a decade or have loads of spare time deals can be had.

Brakeset, $20 to $80 (might take two cheap sets to make up one happy set)
^
$30-150 is more like it for those older, engraved Weinmann 999s.


Shift levers, $20 (eagle eye ebay watching, for correct period)

^
Reminds me - just what IS the differerence between the original Gran Sport (not Nuovo Gran Sport) and NR downtube shifters? They look virtually identical, save for slightly different sizing of the "Patent Campagnolo" lettering.

Many differences, in the clamp, in the stamped text, in the backing plate finish, '61 is past the "open" c lever casting period.

Shift cables and housing, $20, Campagnolo only.
^
I used teflon-lined Shimano cable in grey. Looks the same period, and nobody knows the difference. Doubt of '70s/'80s Campagnolo cable would look just right either.

Lets keep it to restoration.

BB and cranks used $80, expect to pay $80 to $130 for each chainring if NOS desired.
^
Too low a price, both for a BB/crank combo of the stock, steel Stronglight Competition, or the Record 151's w/BB. Looking at $100-$150 for the Stronglight Competition w/BB; $150-250 for the Record 151's.

When you do not need them, $80, when you need them $200. I set up the purchase of NOS chainrings, 53 & 49 as he had original, $220. for both from two different sellers, has not seen a 53 since.

NOS cranks doubtful
^
I dissagree. They're available, if you want to add $600 to the mix.

BB set thin cups used good, $80.
^
Campag. Record or Stronglight Competition?

Campagnolo, of course.

Pedals, Campagnolo, small typography, with strap loops, $125. to $200.
^
Or Lytards for $50-100, if you use the Stronglight Competition crankset.

and one thing you forgot on the list:

Campagnolo Gran Sport RD, correct variant. NOS, $225-$250; used, $50-150.

I mentioned in the text after my list that I forgot the rear mech. Needless to say costs will be variable, but to set one up full Campagnolo it will cost you. If you find a mongrel needing parts like a fork good on ya, but this is in context of a frame with an opening bid of $1350. A different league.
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Old 12-29-06, 02:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by repechage
Repechage replies: the 1052/1 was in the 1958 catalog, '60 and '61 p'mounts I have seen as original had them.
1052/1 is the Record paralellogram derailer, I assume? Odd, as the '61 catalouge shows the GS rod operated derailer. Then again, it could be a re-hashed drawing from 1958.
Quote:
Originally Posted by repechage
You are correct, double checked item is #626, if you can find them for $20 in reasonable shape I will buy three.
If I find myself going into that shop again (had a nasty dispute with the owner last time for doubling prices since I was there last on a Victory caliper), I'll pick some up for you. #626 has the stop on the LH, cable on the right, correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by repechage
A bike needs a front AND rear.
And I dare say I can get my hands on a rear - cheap enough, and soon enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by repechage
Save money, lose originality, I do the same often but when one starts with a big dollar bike frame why cut a small corner?
Actually, you might find that the better DTs will run you close to $70 to do the whole bike. The way I see it, stainless double butted spokes are far superior to the chromed (and rust-potential) spokes, and are by no means cutting corners - rather, an upgrade.

Personally, besides general surface rust/pitting/dulling problems, I've always thought the point of spoke intersection an area were rust potential with chromed spokes is particularly high. Sooner or later, the chrome will rub itself down in that area, and at the same time, water (in the unlikely case that a machine like this may ever contact water) can drip into that area, and unless you run a rag between each spoke, a droplet or two will stay between the spokes. Say hello to a rust spot on those chromed spokes in two weeks.


Quote:
Not all, best to check the frame, they cam with either 700c tubulars or 27" clinchers, frame geometry differed depending on buyer order choice. My friend cannot put brakes on his '61 with 27" wheels, would have to use "short reach" decades later.
Didn't know that Schwinn would go to those lengths in custom-building a Paramount frame back then, although I see now where a rider who wished to use tubulars would require it - unless he didn't mind using longer brake calipers.

Quote:
I was discussing open market, if you take a decade or have loads of spare time deals can be had.
Doesn't take much time at all, I've found.

Quote:
Many differences, in the clamp, in the stamped text, in the backing plate finish, '61 is past the "open" c lever casting period.
Do you have a photo detailing these differences? I'm comparing the orginal levers with that of NRs, and so far, I see the difference in the Campagnolo logo size, but I can't see any difference between an NR lever and the Record lever (save for cable groove width) - unless the Record levers were changed for NRs at one time. The backing plates are completely rusted, but they look to have been finished in black originally, as opposed to the silver of NR, correct?

Quote:
When you do not need them, $80, when you need them $200. I set up the purchase of NOS chainrings, 53 & 49 as he had original, $220. for both from two different sellers, has not seen a 53 since.
How true it is.

Quote:
Campagnolo, of course.
True, for this machine, Campag Record. I like the look of the Stronglights though - they add some variety to a primarily Nuovo Record world, one could say.

Quote:
I mentioned in the text after my list that I forgot the rear mech. Needless to say costs will be variable, but to set one up full Campagnolo it will cost you. If you find a mongrel needing parts like a fork good on ya, but this is in context of a frame with an opening bid of $1350. A different league.
True, but I've run across many good deals suitable for a frame of this caliber. Doesn't have to be overly expensive. Even if one does put down $1,200 for a frame, that doesn't mean whoever buys it isn't looking for a deal when he looks for the components to go with it.

-Kurt
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Old 12-29-06, 03:03 PM   #13
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That sweet frame would make a fine build!

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Old 12-29-06, 06:45 PM   #14
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I would build it up with decent components, then opportunistically upgrade to "correct" parts as luck and budget permitted. I have to concur with Kurt regarding the desirability of certain anachronisms, such as stainless spokes, KoolStop brake pads, and modern low-compression cable housings, but I am looking for something to ride and to enjoy, rather than for wall art.
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Old 12-29-06, 09:31 PM   #15
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I always thought that black was the best looking color on a Paramount, perhaps because I bought a black one in '72. But this one just doesn't look "right" to me. I wouldn't get too carried away making a frame with a non-original color scheme all kitted out with "correct" components. It's already wrong, so why not just accept it? Build it up with some vintage components and have fun riding it. At that price, it's already cost too much money.
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