roguedog

Maybe Classic & Vintage is not the most unbiased place to ask this but... here goes anyway...

Hypothetically, if you had a 1975, 1985, 1995 and a 200x steel bike, all top of the line, and say you eqipped them all with the same wheels and components, would they ride differently?

I'm just curious that when we buy a .. Miyata or a Jack Taylor if we're getting the same ride quality as we could get from a Surly or a Independent Fab? If not, what's changed? Improved manufacturing process?

mastershake916

Weight, geometry, frame flexing, durability.
But I'm not sure when or how much they vary, someone else will.

unworthy1

good thing I've been drinking, I might not have even attempted an answer...
Weight: not much, you could build a modern 853 TIG-welded frame that weighs about the same as a bronze-welded (AKA fillet brazed) 531 frame, give or take a few ounces...not enough to whoop about.
Geometry: yeah, this can vary all over the map, but just as a Miyata can differ wildly from a Jack Taylor, too...this is the one element (apart from wheels) that will affect the ride quality of bike "A" versus bike "B", whenever they were built.
Flexing: again it's not so much the vastly improved materials, cause the improvements are not so vast, nor is it...
Manufacturing: since the TIG welded methods of today are not as much an improvement to the finished product as to the profit margin for the builder, it's quick, it's flexible, it's cheap and modern steel (not to mention Aluminum) tubing will permit it, you couldn't TIG weld 531 with a clear conscience.

Deanster04

I have a 1969 Cinelli SC (Columbus reinforzti), a 1988 SLX preTrek Greg Lemond, and an Ionic Columbus Foco tubing bike all steel and each from different eras. The first 2 have steel forks (Italian style) and the Ionic has a CF fork. All the bikes have conventional wheels with 3x lacing. All bikes are Campy. Use same tires Continental 700x23 3000s. The Cinelli is all original with more than 150K miles with numerous rebuilds of the campy parts (still a real 10spd). The Lemond and Ionic have 10 spd groups (ergo) chorus and record. There are some riding differences but all are comfortable rides. Big advantage of the Ionic at my age (63) is getting the thing on and off the cartop rack. Love riding them all.
I am getting a Mondonico Diamond Extra lugged bike with Columbus Neuron "brain" tubing (steel). The frame is 4lbs. I will have a steel and a CF fork option. This is the latest in steel lugged bikes and Should be the best of all possibilities.
I have tried many of the radially spoked wheel sets and find the ride much harsher than the old school wheels. Maybe that these are designed for light weights and I am 225lbs.
Hope this helps.

HillRider

All grades of steel, from the cheapest Hi-Ten to the latest wonder alloys, have the same inherent "stiffness" (Young's Modulus for the technical types) so for the same diameter and wall thickness they will all behave exactly the same. And please, do not confuse stiffness with strength.

The new high-strength alloy steels allow using thinner walls along with larger diameters to increase the tube's stiffness while keeping the weight at or below what is possible with weaker materials.

As to a TIG welded 853 frame only being "a few ounces" lighter than a brazed 531 frame, that's true but riders sure agonize over those few ounces and will spend great amounts of money to achieve far smaller weight savings in other components.

Az B

I don't know about the weight differences in the frames, but my '82 Miyata (all stock) is Cro Mo and weighs 24 lbs. My '06 853 bike is Ultegra and weighs 18.5 lbs. The Miyata is a tourer, and I guess the older parts weigh more, but 6 lbs seems like a lot. I would think the frame is more than "a few ounces" lighter. (No I'm not going to tear both bikes down and weigh the frames)

As for the difference in the ride, the Miyata still rides better because it has longer chainstays. And the weight probably helps the ride as well. On a hilly ride, you can definitely feel the weight though, especially after several good uphills.

Az

wagathon

A Lemond Zurich still had a quill stem as late as 2000; Lemond BA as late as 2001. These bikes are very spare steel bikes in the classic tradition. I prefer the BA because they were designed to more easily accommodate tires larger than 23c.

Except for their more modern wheelsets, and lack of butts (because Reynolds 853 steel can be welded), freewheels larger than 5 or 6 gears, and no downtube shifting, and CF instead of steel forks . . . they're just like the vintage classics. The Sarthe is the line that is carrying on that tradition at Lemond now.

unworthy1

You might notice that I was careful to compare 2 types of alloy steel tubesets (Reynolds 531 and 853) and two manufacturing methods (fillet brazing and TIG welding), and this was specifically because the results will be much closer in weight than between a lugged steel touring frame (which might be built from Tange Champion 3 or 4) and a TIG welded 853. Plus I probably exagerated a bit too. My point was not to draw comparisons with vastly dissimilar materials (like CF or Titanium) and alloy steel, but to make a stab at answering the OPs original speculation, (between say an IDENTICALLY equipt Jack Taylor and a Surly) but narrow down the variables to just vintage/modern steel and vintage/modern construction. I still contend that (eliminating variables like dissimilar components and frame material) the geometry differences between a typical vintage subject and a modern specimen will make the biggest difference in ride. Of course, to make it a fair contest you'd have to adjust the rear spacing of all the eras to match a compromise 6 or 7 speed rear...good thing they're all steel or you'd be SOL.

John E

What I know from experience:
1) More because of changes in geometry than anything else, a circa 1980 road racing frame will tend to be stiffer, harsher, and twitchier, but faster on climbs and sprints, than a ca. 1960 racing frame.
2) Twenty years ago, 10kg was a respectable weight for a road bike. This is at least 1 kg heavy by today's standards.

merlinextraligh

actually,almost 3 kg heavy by today's standards, at least at the top end.

John E

Materials have improved, but I still wonder how well the lightest state-of-the-art road racing bikes will hold up.

grolby

There's a world of difference between my old Miyata and new Surly touring bikes. Unfortunately, it's difficult to assess which of those differences are due to geometry, which are due to components and which are due to the tubing. The Surly has a more relaxed ride, yet also feels stiffer, stronger and more confident in the corners. I would bet that superior touring frame design, wider tires and my threadless headset are all more significant than the steel itself, which is after all plain old 4130. The fork and stays are burlier, but I doubt that there's a meaningful difference in the materials.