Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 45
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    195
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Ishiwata tubing?

    Don't know much about tubing but found a bike with Ishiwata. I know that sheldon brown says this is a good quality tubing but were there varies tiers of tubing?

    I'm not sure I'm sayign this right..

    Like, Reynolds 531 and Columbus SLX are on some sort of "quality" scale. Does Ishiwata tubing have something similar? For instance, Ishiwata EX is awesome cuz it's light and double butted, blah blah.. but stay away from Ishiwata XX cuz it's just straight tubing.. or something like that?

  2. #2
    Avenir Equipped BlankCrows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    My Bikes
    Chesini X-Uno, etc.....
    Posts
    1,149
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The search function is your friend.

    The bottom thread in the list at least has some info.

    Ishiwata Threads

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    9,997
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Arranged by family. DB = double butted, TB = triple butted, QB = quad butted. Please note that weights vary depending on the source and year, so take them as relative versus definitive. All are CrMo except for the manganese alloy Mangy series.



    015 Alpha, 1780g, DB, record attempts, 125 lb limit
    017 Record Breaker, 1870g, DB, record attepts, 150 lb limit
    019D/E Exactus, 1930g, QB, seamed
    019 Glories Victory, 1970g, DB, road racing, 150 lb limit
    022D Exactus, 2170g, QB
    022 Speed Gallant, 2200g, road racing/touring, 175 lb limit
    024D Exactus, 2350g, QB
    024 Ultra Strrong, 2360g, DB

    EX0-L, 1950g, QB, seamed
    EXO-M, 2125g, QB, seamed
    EXO-H, 2140g, QB, seamed

    EX-F, 2150g, TB, raod racing
    EX-T, 2250g, TB, road racing/touring, 200 lb limit

    Mangy V, 2235g, DB, road racing/touring, 200 lb limit
    Mangy X, 2420g, DB, touring, 200 lb limit
    Mangy EX, 2420 TB
    Mangy EXO, 2450 QB
    Last edited by T-Mar; 02-16-07 at 10:53 AM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    9,997
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    FYI, also a CF016 (1565g, but it's carbon fiber main tubes, with CrMo forks and stays. Also Nicrmo (1706g), a unique steel tubeset, which I assume is nickel-chromium-molybdenum, asnd which required adhesive bonding.

  5. #5
    Avenir Equipped BlankCrows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    My Bikes
    Chesini X-Uno, etc.....
    Posts
    1,149
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Excellent info as always from T-Mar.

    There are a good amount of tubing inquiries. Perhaps a sticky type thread (or topic in one of the other sticky areas) gathering info for tubing types from different manufacturers can be created.

  6. #6
    Yet another vegan biker
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Trapped behind the corn curtain
    My Bikes
    Sakae Prism, Vintage Fuji bike(S), too many bikes, one from scratch bike.
    Posts
    965
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Also Nicrmo (1706g), a unique steel tubeset, which I assume is nickel-chromium-molybdenum, asnd which required adhesive bonding.
    Cool! Now I have to search the web and find one of these.

  7. #7
    Senior Member wrote4luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    North Carolina
    My Bikes
    2008 Cannondale Six 13, 1980 Dawes Super Galaxy
    Posts
    559
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by T-Mar
    Arranged by family. DB = double butted, TB = triple butted, QB = quad butted. Please note that weights vary depending on the source and year, so take them as relative versus definitive. All are CrMo except for the manganese alloy Mangy series.



    015 Alpha, 1780g, DB, record attempts, 125 lb limit
    017 Record Breaker, 1870g, DB, record attepts, 150 lb limit
    019D/E Exactus, 1930g, QB, seamed
    019 Glories Victory, 1970g, DB, road racing, 150 lb limit
    022D Exactus, 2170g, QB
    022 Speed Gallant, 2200g, road racing/touring, 175 lb limit
    024D Exactus, 2350g, QB
    024 Ultra Strrong, 2360g, DB

    EX0-L, 1950g, QB, seamed
    EXO-M, 2125g, QB, seamed
    EXO-H, 2140g, QB, seamed

    EX-F, 2150g, TB, raod racing
    EX-T, 2250g, TB, road racing/touring, 200 lb limit

    Mangy V, 2235g, DB, road racing/touring, 200 lb limit
    Mangy X, 2420g, DB, touring, 200 lb limit
    Mangy EX, 2420 TB
    Mangy EXO, 2450 QB
    Where would my Fuji fit into this? The Ishiwata decal says "Si35 triple-butted"
    2008 Cannondale Six 13 2006 Mercier Serpens
    1980 Dawes Super Galaxy

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    9,997
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by wrote4luck
    Where would my Fuji fit into this? The Ishiwata decal says "Si35 triple-butted"
    That was a 1990 era tubest. It had internal channels (SI = splines internal?) and often appeared as Feather SI35. I didn't include it because I have no data on it, other than what it says on the label. There are other Ishiwata tubests that are not included for the same reason, such as the 025 tubeset.

  9. #9
    Señor Member USAZorro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Carlisle, PA
    My Bikes
    1954 Hetchins M.O., 1959 Viking Severn Valley, 1970 Raleigh Pro, 1972 Fuji "The Finest", 1974 Raleigh Superbe&Comp, 1976 Raleigh Team Pro, 1994 Trek 830 MTB, 2000 Bob Jackson Arrowhead, Unicycle
    Posts
    13,034
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Hey T-Mar - would you venture a guess on what frameset my 1973 (or 74) Fuji Finest has? It's labeled double butted chrome molybdenum. I'd guess 22 - or possibly 19, or possibly not even Ishiwata?? You'd probably have a better idea. 56cm if that makes a difference - and it's done fine toting my 165 lb carcass around these past two years.
    The search for inner peace continues...

  10. #10
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    8,188
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    T-Mar, as always is a wealth of information...but I always thought that Fuji made their own tubing. I haven't really been paying attention, but is it a given that Ishiwata drew (some? all?) the tubes for Fuji? How about Miyata's tubing?

  11. #11
    Senior Member Bikedued's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    8,936
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I found these pics that should help with the Miyata splined tubing.,,,,BD

    Called Hardtlite I believe, yes the spelling is correct.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "Whale. Oil. Beef. Hooked!" The Rumjacks

  12. #12
    Senior Member Grand Bois's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Pinole, CA, USA
    Posts
    15,082
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by unworthy1
    T-Mar, as always is a wealth of information...but I always thought that Fuji made their own tubing. I haven't really been paying attention, but is it a given that Ishiwata drew (some? all?) the tubes for Fuji? How about Miyata's tubing?
    Every Fuji I've seen has had a Valite tubing sticker. Was Valite used only on the lower end bikes? What is it? I read somewhere that it was developed for robot brazing.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    9,997
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by unworthy1
    T-Mar, as always is a wealth of information...but I always thought that Fuji made their own tubing. I haven't really been paying attention, but is it a given that Ishiwata drew (some? all?) the tubes for Fuji? How about Miyata's tubing?
    Miyata started producing their own tubes in 1981. Even into the 1990s their catalogs state "We were, and are, the only manufacturer to draw our own tubes". So at least from a C&V perspective, Miyata appear to be the only legitimate contender for bicycle and tube manufacturer. If others existed, I'm sure there would have been some very prominent ads or even libel suits.

    Personally, I always wondered about Araya tubing as they manufactured bicycles and rims. You'd think that tubing is not much of a stretch from rims. But maybe they just did forming on supplied steel and aluminum strip.

    It's quite common for bicycle brands to have private label tubing manufactured for them by the tubing mills. If you've got the dollars, your supplier will do anything for you. I suppose the marketers think of it as a selling point, where they can tout the superiority of their tubeset, because the consumer doesn't know what it actually is. In some ways a known tubeset is a drawback, because the consumer can lay his hand on some hard facts to compare it to the competition.

    Another reason, applicable primarily to the boom era Japanese brands, may be that the Japanese tubing, either rightly or wrongly, did not have the reputation and/or prestige of Columbus and Reynolds.

    So, based on the Miyata claims and trend for private label tubing during the boom, it would appear that Fuji did not manufacture their own tubes. Early models that generic or Fuji labels could be standard offerings by Ishiwata an/or Tange, and/or custom tubesets produced to Fuji's specs by Ishiwata and/or Tange.

    Actual Ishiwata labeled Fuji started appearing around 1988. By that time the Japanese tubing manufacturers had gained enough prestige to stand on their own merits against the likes of Reynolds and Columbus. At least, that's my thinking on the apparent reversal in Fuji's policy. Maybe they were trying to cut some costs too, in the wake of the yen re-evaluation.

    My thinking is that most of the early Fuji are probably Ishiwata. Fuji used primarily components from the JEX trade organization which included SunTour, Dia-Compe and Sugino. Tange was a member of the rival JBM group. While I can find no evidence that Ishiwata was part of JBM or JEX, Fuji seemed to buy very little from JBM companies during this era, making Ishiwata more likely than Tange. There is also the Japabese preference for strong, long term supplier relationships. The fact that later Fuji used Ishiwata, indicates that they were probably the supplier for earlier models.

    To incease your confidence, there are a couple of options. The holy grail is finding a tube manufacturer ID on something like the steering column. Sometimes, you can deduce the manufacturer by seat post diameter (USAZorro, post yours). Barring that, you can always section a frame and take measurements, but I'm reluctant to do that. However, if anybody wants to volunteer to an old Professional, Newest or Finest.....

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    195
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    T-Mar... who ARE you?? You must be a living encyclopedia of bike history. How came you by this knowledge??

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    195
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    mods... please delete my extra posts so i don't look like quite so much of an a$$ (really am sorry all. SBC guys coming today to hopefully resolve my lag issues)

  16. #16
    Señor Member USAZorro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Carlisle, PA
    My Bikes
    1954 Hetchins M.O., 1959 Viking Severn Valley, 1970 Raleigh Pro, 1972 Fuji "The Finest", 1974 Raleigh Superbe&Comp, 1976 Raleigh Team Pro, 1994 Trek 830 MTB, 2000 Bob Jackson Arrowhead, Unicycle
    Posts
    13,034
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    T-Mar - it takes 26.6mm.

    Cheers,

    Z
    The search for inner peace continues...

  17. #17
    Lanky Lass East Hill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Take a deep breath, and ask--What would Sheldon do?
    My Bikes
    Nishiki Nut! International, Pro, Olympic 12, Sport mixte, and others too numerous to mention.
    Posts
    21,575
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by roguedog
    T-Mar... who ARE you?? You must be a living encyclopedia of bike history. How came you by this knowledge??
    We told Lossy that T-Mar is at least a bike-history demi-god.

    That's true .

    East Hill
    ___________________________________________________
    TRY EMPATHY & HAVE LOVE IN YOUR HEART, PERHAPS I'LL SEE YOU ON THE ROAD...

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    9,997
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by USAZorro
    T-Mar - it takes 26.6mm.

    Cheers,

    Z
    That's actually quite a small post for a butted Ishiwata tubeset. 022 and even 024 would have used a larger posts, according to the specs I have. I can come up with several scenarios:

    1. Ishiwata made it custom for Fuji.
    2. It's one of the heavy gauge Ishiwata tubesets (like 025), for which I don't have specs.
    3. The slot is pinched and the post is actually smaller than the correct size.
    4. It's a mixed tubeset with a plain gauge seat tube.
    5. The seat tube was inserted, upside down.
    6. It's a Tange tubeset. Tange tubesets typically use 26.6-26.8mm posts.

    Next time you overhaul the headset, have a good look at the steerer for an identifying mark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtdrop
    Every Fuji I've seen has had a Valite tubing sticker. Was Valite used only on the lower end bikes? What is it? I read somewhere that it was developed for robot brazing.
    VaLite was reportedly a vanadium steel alloy. It was stronger than hi-tensile but not as strong as chromium molybdenum. It is commonly found on upper entry level and lower mid-range Fuji from the early 1980s. In order to control costs, lower models would often employ Valite main tubes with hi-tensile stays and/or forks, while the better models would often have VaLite forks and/or stays paired with a CrMo main triangle. Forum member Beaverstuff has reported VaLite frame with Ishiwata steerer, so these tubesets appear to have been made by Ishiwata for Fuji.

    The early 1980s timeframe and tensile strength values put it in the same era and league as the manganese alloy tubesets such as Columbus Aelle, Miyata Mangalight and Tange Mangaloy. These tubests were more tolerant of brazing parameters and therefore permitted a more automated and therefore less expensive, production process. In order to be competitive, Valite would likely have had similar capability.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roguedog
    T-Mar... who ARE you?? You must be a living encyclopedia of bike history. How came you by this knowledge??
    Suffice it say that I have been involved in the sport and industry for a very long time and that I throw out very little of what I have collected. I am somewhat reluctant to give out more details. You know that old saying. "If I told you more, I'd have to kill you..." Well, I wouldn't kill you, but it might be the end of T-Mar as a forum member, as it would probably increase my e-mails and PM to the point where they would occupy most of my available time. Currently they consume about 1/3 of my BF time. If you really want to know the details, I'll tell, you, but you wouldn't want to be repsonsible for my BF disappearance, would you?
    Last edited by T-Mar; 02-17-07 at 12:49 PM.

  19. #19
    Broom Wagon Fodder reverborama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Minnesota
    My Bikes
    Fuji Supreme; Fuji Royale; Schwinn Varsity; Nishiki International; Schwinn Premis, Falcon Merckx
    Posts
    1,165
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Here's a chart from an article about tubing in the July '82 issue of Bicycling:

    www.salt2salt.com/scans/TubingChart.JPG

    I have a couple more tidbits that I will scan in the next couple of days related to VaLite tubing.

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    9,997
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by reverborama
    Here's a chart from an article about tubing in the July '82 issue of Bicycling:

    www.salt2salt.com/scans/TubingChart.JPG

    I have a couple more tidbits that I will scan in the next couple of days related to VaLite tubing.
    Those weights for the Magny tubesets do not pass my sanity check. The density of steel does not change dramatically for different alloys, yet these sets weigh substantially more than anything else, even more than Tange's hi-tensile sets, which have thicker tubes!

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    My Bikes
    '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!
    Posts
    25,260
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by T-Mar
    Those weights for the Magny tubesets do not pass my sanity check. The density of steel does not change dramatically for different alloys, yet these sets weigh substantially more than anything else, even more than Tange's hi-tensile sets, which have thicker tubes!
    Is it certain that the tubes are all the same length among the various tube sets? If the Mangy tube sets came with longer tubes (say to allow building larger frames) then the set would weigh more even if the wall dimensions were the same as another set that had a lower published weight.

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    9,997
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider
    Is it certain that the tubes are all the same length among the various tube sets? If the Mangy tube sets came with longer tubes (say to allow building larger frames) then the set would weigh more even if the wall dimensions were the same as another set that had a lower published weight.
    Sure, tube length will play a part, but they would have to be very long for that weight. According to the Bicycling chart, Magny X has the same wall thickness as 022, but the weight is 3190g versus 2185g. That's almost a 50% increase in weight! So if 022 came in lengths that allowed you to build a 25" frame, a Magny X set of that weight would be for about a 36" frame! I don't see too many of those around. Even if you assume factors such as longer butts and tube lengths, those figures are just too high. I suspect the 3 should be a 2. Thus Magny X would become 2190g, which is close to the 2185g of 022.
    Last edited by T-Mar; 02-18-07 at 08:06 AM.

  23. #23
    Dude Kaptain Amerika's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    My Bikes
    ~15, all steel
    Posts
    13
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm looking at late '70s/early '80s Treks and wondering if the Magny X is straight gauge or DB in the forks and stays. Not sure whether to insist on a full 531 steel frame or if the Ishiwata is OK. THANKS so much for any help; I know this thread is fairly ancient.
    *!*!*!*

    "When man invented the bicycle, he reached the peak of his attainments. Here was a machine of precision and balance for the convenience of man. And (unlike subsequent inventions for man’s convenience) the more he used it, the fitter his body became. Here, for once, was a product of man’s brain that was entirely beneficial to those who used it, and of no harm or irritation to others. Progress should have stopped when man invented the bicycle." —Elizabeth West

  24. #24
    Senior Member Bikedued's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    8,936
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Not exactly what you're looking for as an answer, but I love my 022 Trek 510. It rides and handles every bit as good as any 531 bike I've ever owned. I know it's blasphemy, but it actually rides nicer than a few of the 531 bikes I've owned..,,,,BD
    "Whale. Oil. Beef. Hooked!" The Rumjacks

  25. #25
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    San Francisco California
    My Bikes
    2007 Waterford 953 RS-22
    Posts
    8,517
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The stays and fork blades are straight gauge (stays are 0.8mm and fork blades are 1.0mm).

    - Stan

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •