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Old 07-03-07, 09:34 PM   #1
jet sanchEz
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Older Marinoni/Campy help/i.d.

Hi guys, another question thread about a Marinoni. I am hoping someone can shed some light on this groupo from a Marinoni that I am seeing tomorrow. I don't know much about Campy, can anyone tell me the name of the group and it's approximate value? Thanks!














Last edited by jet sanchEz; 07-04-07 at 08:55 AM. Reason: more accurate thread title
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Old 07-03-07, 10:32 PM   #2
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Looks like early Nuovo Record Gruppo - often incorrectly referred to as the C-Record gruppo, but just try to find that designation in any Campagnolo publication - you wont. 1986-89 or so. The chainset is NOT the Nuovo Record however, that had an upside down 5 arm spider. This looks like one of the alternaive cranks of the time, maybe a newer Gran Sport crank with the 116mm BCD rings. (The 1984 GS crank has milled flutes - not a nice as the record cranks though). no idea on the value.

The 1986 rear derailleur of the Nuovo Record Gruppo had a solid cage, this one is hollow. Might be a late 80s not the original 1986 version.
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Old 07-04-07, 08:52 AM   #3
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I see, thanks. I am not super-concerned about the value of the components, I just wanted to know where they fall in the Campy hierarchy as that might give me an idea of the value of the entire bike. Would you say that this is about the same level as Shimano 105? I am guessing it is a higher end bike as the seller has indicated that the tubing is Columbia (sic), so I think it might be SL. Thanks for the input!
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Old 07-04-07, 09:52 AM   #4
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Looks more like a Nuovo Victory or Nuovo Triomphe gruppo to me. Look at a catalog here:
http://www.tuttocampybici.com/downlo...p?code=nv-nt87
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Old 07-04-07, 09:55 AM   #5
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Triomphe/Victory. Entry level racing introduced in '86.
from campyonly:

Last edited by rollsroyce; 07-04-07 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 07-04-07, 10:02 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillacmike68
Looks like early Nuovo Record Gruppo - often incorrectly referred to as the C-Record gruppo, but just try to find that designation in any Campagnolo publication - you wont. 1986-89 or so. The chainset is NOT the Nuovo Record however, that had an upside down 5 arm spider. This looks like one of the alternaive cranks of the time, maybe a newer Gran Sport crank with the 116mm BCD rings. (The 1984 GS crank has milled flutes - not a nice as the record cranks though). no idea on the value.

The 1986 rear derailleur of the Nuovo Record Gruppo had a solid cage, this one is hollow. Might be a late 80s not the original 1986 version.
Campy bike expert? I think not!
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Old 07-04-07, 10:07 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Old Fat Guy
Looks more like a Nuovo Victory or Nuovo Triomphe gruppo to me. Look at a catalog here:
http://www.tuttocampybici.com/downlo...p?code=nv-nt87
My guess is Victory, but it's hard to tell the difference. Given that the crank has "quick release" dustcaps and the FD appearance, I think it's not the slightly lower-cost Triomphe...but both these groups function about the same. It's kind of a shame that the smaller BCD of the crank didn't catch on, could have given us a lot more choice in road chainring sizes. These "economy" gruppos did show up on SL frames, but more commonly on Aelle. The Marinoni has a flashy chrome fork, so I'd guess it's likely an SL.
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Old 07-04-07, 12:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtdrop
Campy bike expert? I think not!
Hear hear!

I'm gonna say Victory because of the white hoods and upper jockey pulley on the RD. Of course we need to see the design of the upper pivot stop to be sure.

Also.. Jet... Don't shy away if it has a tretubi sticker. I have a marinoni with a tretubi sticker and it is an SP main frame and cromor stays/fork... A B model for marinoni but a damn nice bike nontheless.
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Last edited by cyclotoine; 07-04-07 at 02:32 PM.
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Old 07-04-07, 12:57 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Dirtdrop
Campy bike expert? I think not!
I don't generally delve past 1986 on this stuff, especially after the Nuovo Record Gruppo was introduced - I flat out didn't like it at all, and pretty much ignored it and all following releases. If my memory on the group failed me at 1:30am and I got the name wrong, I at least pegged the year right. It was AFTER 1986, and therefore after my interest level. So throw me in a briat patch

And those were the same rings fron the Gran Sport group of 1984. Campagnolo did this a lot, kept a functional component in use on a new series.
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Old 07-04-07, 01:10 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by cadillacmike68
I don't generally delve past 1986 on this stuff, especially after the Nuovo Record Gruppo was introduced - I flat out didn't like it at all, and pretty much ignored it and all following releases. If my memory on the group failed me at 1:30am and I got the name wrong, I at least pegged the year right. It was AFTER 1986, and therefore after my interest level. So throw me in a briat patch
You don't like anything after nuovo record!? So you don't like any campy after 1968?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillacmike68
And those were the same rings fron the Gran Sport group of 1984. Campagnolo did this a lot, kept a functional component in use on a new series.
and that is what makes IDing campy fun and challenging at times and often leads to incorrect IDs....
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Old 07-04-07, 01:17 PM   #11
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Speaking of Marinoni I saw a beaut last saturday; some guy from outta town came to our club race. Figured it had to be an early 90s one - indexed downtube shifters anyway. white, all chromed stays (including seatstays), also full chromed fork. White and chrome work really well together.
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Old 07-04-07, 01:58 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by cadillacmike68
If my memory on the group failed me at 1:30am and I got the name wrong, I at least pegged the year right. It was AFTER 1986, and therefore after my interest level.
Got another nitpick for you - Victory was released in 1985 and remained identical through 1986. The 1987 group featured slightly different RD styling and was renamed "Victory S3." (a.k.a. Victory Series 3). Of note, the Triomphe derailer of '87 - likewise, renamed "Triomphe S3" in '87 - was identical to the Victory S3, as opposed to the '85-6 gruppos in where both gruppo's derailers had a number of functional and minor cosmetic differences. In 1988, both groups did away with the engraved logo, and used the newer Campagnolo silkscreened script logo.

The Marinoni in the photos is sporting a complete 1985 (I believe "11" is '85, correct?) Victory gruppo. To be entirely sure, check the RD to see if it has the following nylon insert in it:

1985:


1986:



Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillacmike68
And those were the same rings fron the Gran Sport group of 1984. Campagnolo did this a lot, kept a functional component in use on a new series.
Grand Sport Touring group only - it was used on the G.S. triple. The standard G.S. road gruppo used the traditional steel three-pin crankset, or a similar 3-pin aluminum crankset.

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Old 07-04-07, 02:18 PM   #13
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Kurt, I DO have a 1984 brochure showing victory, triomphe and record (what we know as C-record though it doesn't actually name it as such) concurrently with super and nuovo record.

Edit: the 1987 Nuovo Victory/Triomphe catalogue shows both groups sporting white brake lever hoods and white derailleur pulley though previously the triomphe was gum/black hoods and wheels respectively ('84 brochure) and black/black in the 18bis catalogue (86 i think).

Of additional note is the QR nut appears to be of the Nuovo Tipo or gran sport variety... could be Nuovo Tipo hubs or replacement skewer/nut. You will be able to tell based on the logo. Should be QR wing logo for Tipo and shield for victory.
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Last edited by cyclotoine; 07-04-07 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 07-04-07, 02:35 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by cudak888
Got another nitpick for you - Victory was released in 1985 and remained identical through 1986. The 1987 group featured slightly different RD styling and was renamed "Victory S3." (a.k.a. Victory Series 3). Of note, the Triomphe derailer of '87 - likewise, renamed "Triomphe S3" in '87 - was identical to the Victory S3, as opposed to the '85-6 gruppos in where both gruppo's derailers had a number of functional and minor cosmetic differences. In 1988, both groups did away with the engraved logo, and used the newer Campagnolo silkscreened script logo.

The Marinoni in the photos is sporting a complete 1985 (I believe "11" is '85, correct?) Victory gruppo. To be entirely sure, check the RD to see if it has the following nylon insert in it:

1985:


1986:





Grand Sport Touring group only - it was used on the G.S. triple. The standard G.S. road gruppo used the traditional steel three-pin crankset, or a similar 3-pin aluminum crankset.

Take care,

-Kurt

However: by 1982 the GS road group had a 5 arm spider similar in appearance to the Record cranks but with less refined stamped or forged "fluting" (as opposed the the finely milled flutes on the Record cranks) and no shield around the logo. It used the same chainrings as the Record road chainrings. The Touring cranks were much smaller BCD, 116mm as opposed to 144mm, this allowed real "granny gears" for the first time. and the group came with the infamous - now hard to find Rally derailleur.
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Old 07-04-07, 02:43 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by cyclotoine
You don't like anything after nuovo record!? So you don't like any campy after 1968?



and that is what makes IDing campy fun and challenging at times and often leads to incorrect IDs....
Hold on a minute. I said 86 not 68. And it's not that I don't "like" it, I just don't prefer it. I wouldn't throw away an 86 Nuovo Record equipped bike if I came into one by some means, but I'm not rushing out to find one either. (I don't do italian steel either and finding a late 80s Reynolds frame with Campy Record is very hard indeed). I was working in a bike shop back then and when the "Nuovo Record Gruppo" came out, I didn't like the crank arms, rear derailleur or brakes. They appeared far too "over designed" for me, so I pretty much kept my bike the way it was, with the late 70s Record / Super Record equipment. Please bear in mind that the original "Record" group had many individual "Nuovo record" items in it, like the rear derailleur, and FD after 1978), etc. I just liked their appearance much more. The company made and still makes fine equipment, but I like the way the older stuff looks a lot better, and it fits my bike as well.

I did buy a Pat 81 SR rear derailleur though and if I can't find a nice Pat 78 one, I'll put it on my bike - after i get the SR front changer properly aligned.

If you wonder why i don't do italian steel, just look up the M 13/40 tank. I'd take 1 Matilda over 10 of those any day.
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Old 07-04-07, 02:47 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillacmike68
I don't generally delve past 1986 on this stuff, especially after the Nuovo Record Gruppo was introduced
I was just ribbing you because of this statement. The way it's worded suggests you don't like anything after the Nuovo Record was introduced.
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Old 07-04-07, 02:50 PM   #17
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I was just ribbing you because of this statement. The way it's worded suggests you don't like anything after the Nuovo Record was introduced.
OK, I really meant Nuovo Record Group in 86, not NR derailleur. I should have clarified that.
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Old 07-04-07, 02:51 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by cyclotoine
Kurt, I DO have a 1984 brochure showing victory, triomphe and record (what we know as C-record though it doesn't actually name it as such) concurrently with super and nuovo record.

Edit: the 1987 Nuovo Victory/Triomphe catalogue shows both groups sporting white brake lever hoods and white derailleur pulley though previously the triomphe was gum/black hoods and wheels respectively ('84 brochure) and black/black in the 18bis catalogue (86 i think).

Of additional note is the QR nut appears to be of the Nuovo Tipo or gran sport variety... could be Nuovo Tipo hubs or replacement skewer/nut. You will be able to tell based on the logo. Should be QR wing logo for Tipo and shield for victory.

Campagnolo STILL used that QR nut up to 85-86 on the Nuovo Tipo hubs!?! Look at a Catalog 18 exploded diagram.
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Old 07-04-07, 02:58 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by cadillacmike68
OK, I really meant Nuovo Record Group in 86, not NR derailleur. I should have clarified that.
I would still argue that technically Nuovo record was considered a full group in 1978. It is called the nuovo record group in the catalogue and seems fit as a differentiation from super record group. As you said Campagnolo used many of the same parts from old groups in new group (like GS to victory/triomphe etc..). I think most of us think of early 70s record as Nuovo Record. It is the new record and you could not get the old record changers anymore, even if the catalogues still say Record group as opposed to Nuovo Record group.
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Old 07-04-07, 02:59 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by cadillacmike68
Campagnolo STILL used that QR nut up to 85-86 on the Nuovo Tipo hubs!?! Look at a Catalog 18 exploded diagram.
No one is saying they didn't. The original intention of the thread was to ID the campy bits, which is all I said, there was no suggestion of time frame.
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Old 07-04-07, 04:09 PM   #21
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However: by 1982 the GS road group had a 5 arm spider similar in appearance to the Record cranks but with less refined stamped or forged "fluting" (as opposed the the finely milled flutes on the Record cranks) and no shield around the logo.
Right - I forgot that variant. A slightly bulkier, less-refined version of the NR crank.

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Old 07-04-07, 04:34 PM   #22
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I would still argue that technically Nuovo record was considered a full group in 1978. It is called the nuovo record group in the catalogue and seems fit as a differentiation from super record group. As you said Campagnolo used many of the same parts from old groups in new group (like GS to victory/triomphe etc..). I think most of us think of early 70s record as Nuovo Record. It is the new record and you could not get the old record changers anymore, even if the catalogues still say Record group as opposed to Nuovo Record group.
There is no 1978 catalog, only the 1978 17a supplement which only lists about a dozen new items, including oddly enough a "record front changer" which is the 4 cutouts design and probably should have been called a Nuovo Record changer). The 17a catalog is a 1975 one and it does say Nuovo Record Road Group, but the track group is just Record. Then in 1984-86 with Catalog 18, it's once again called the Record Road group. Of course the Nouvo Gran Sport rear derailleur was introduced back in the 50s, then it re-appears in the 70s and bounces from Gran Sport to Nuovo Gran Sport in the catalogs?!? I guess Campagnolo was about as consistent with their naming conventions as the Canon camera company is.
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Old 07-04-07, 05:21 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by cadillacmike68
...Of course the Nouvo Gran Sport rear derailleur was introduced back in the 50s, then it re-appears in the 70s and bounces from Gran Sport to Nuovo Gran Sport in the catalogs?!? I guess Campagnolo was about as consistent with their naming conventions as the Canon camera company is.
Their catalogue naming conventions may have left a good deal to be desired, but I have yet to see one of the '70s G.S. derailers sans "Nuovo" in the name on the parallelogram. As far as I'm concerned, the '70s era GS is "Nuovo Gran Sport."

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Old 07-04-07, 06:34 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by cadillacmike68
There is no 1978 catalog, only the 1978 17a supplement which only lists about a dozen new items, including oddly enough a "record front changer" which is the 4 cutouts design and probably should have been called a Nuovo Record changer). The 17a catalog is a 1975 one and it does say Nuovo Record Road Group, but the track group is just Record. Then in 1984-86 with Catalog 18, it's once again called the Record Road group. Of course the Nouvo Gran Sport rear derailleur was introduced back in the 50s, then it re-appears in the 70s and bounces from Gran Sport to Nuovo Gran Sport in the catalogs?!? I guess Campagnolo was about as consistent with their naming conventions as the Canon camera company is.
I apologise I must have been looking at the 17a... so I am mistaken it is earlier than 1978...
Looks like it says nuovo record road group to me... 1975... 17a...
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Old 07-04-07, 08:18 PM   #25
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Wow, that is a ton of information, thanks guys! I put off seeing the bike as it was raining here today but I will hopefully be able to see it tomorrow. So it seems to be a fairly good group, is that right? The frame looks nice and the paintjob would put it at around 1986 or so, I just hope it doesn't need too much work (if I decide to get it----is 400$CDN too high?!)
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