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Centurion Carbon project, I hate this thing

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Centurion Carbon project, I hate this thing

Old 07-15-07, 02:49 PM
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Centurion Carbon project, I hate this thing

OK as I promised in my introductory post, here's a bit about a Centurion Dave Scott Ironman Carbon (dang, that's a mouthfull). In case the title didn't clue you in, I have nothing but loathing for this bike at the moment.

Let's backtrack a bit and see if I can get the story straight. I've been trying to get back into biking, and being both poor and cheap, have been watching craigslist for affordable mountain bikes. Well, one day, up pops and ad for a carbon fibre triathlon bike.

This generated about 15 minutes of intense googling to figure out roadbike sizes (Hey, it'll fit). Couple that with no luck on MTB's for awhile, the fact that's it's CF indicates to me it probably cost someone a chunk of money at one time, and the price is closer to $100 than $200. WTH, I make a phone call and arrangements are made to go and fetch it.

Looked like a bike made of CF, so I pay the guy and start hitting the net. It's missing all the brake components so about a week of research finally lands use a set of 105 calipers for $17 off ebay, and some new Tektro levers, Cane Creek cross tops and a set of Dura Ace cables from various dealers.

To digress further, the bike was apparently issued with a full Dura Ace gruppo, but the more I look, the more I realize pieces and chunks have snuck off quietly over the years. The cranks and BB appear original, as doe the friction shifters and the front derailer. Only realized later that the rear derailer is an Altus, and the bars are Cinelli mounted to a no-name cheap stem.

Anyway here's a look at the beastie as assembled so far:



Please ignore the ugly cabling job; at this point I haven't wanted to cut anything until I made sure it was all working and I come up with a placement I like for the brake levers. I was more interested in testing it, so about 1:00am last Thursday, I rolled out into the dark to see what we had.

AND NOW, we get to the punchline; why I hate this squirrelly thing

It doesn't roll so much as shimmy, shake and grind it's way along. I wish my wife could move like this. But it's not a good feeling on a bike.

What's going on, and here is where I could use some input, is that the wheels weren't exactly true when I got it, and the tires themselves look sort of like a snake eating eggs. The PO told me the wheels were true, and playing the part of a total dumb-***** that day, I didn't bother to do any high tech inspection, like actually spinning the darn things and looking at them. I've managed to get the front running good, but I'm afraid the rear rim might be toast. I believe it's been flat spotted, crushed, bent or whatever. I need to get the tire off and get some actual measuring tools on it.

So I guess the basic question is, could the tires be the worst of the problem, or...? Remember the front trued up nicely, the rear is out about 1.5mm at one place both for round and plane, and the spoke tensions vary pretty wildly to get it that far. I'm running the tires at about 95 psi. My gut feeling is that I can probably use the front with a new tire, but I need a new rim to lace into the rear. Money is kind of a concern, thus I'd rather put a new rim on than buy a whole rear wheel. Obviously, I'm a little reluctant to try used wheels off of ebay at this point for fear of getting the same problem. My frustration comes from trying for a month to get out and work some of this fat off, and finding I'm not ready to ride yet.

Now we'll take a break from my whining and look at some more picture. Here's the sticker on the top tube:



And a close up of the rear left drop out; lots of cute little aluminum lugs on this thing.



Here's a view of the BB and cranks. Please look closely at the Dura Ace logo, there will be a quiz.



Quiz question is: Can someone identify which Dura Ace series this is? I think it's 7400, but I'm not positive. I'm hoping to scrounge enough original parts for it eventually.

Anyway, I think I'll like it once I get the kinks worked out, but could use a little inout here as I'm so frustrated I can't think clearly on it. I gave up for the weekend and have been working on my wife's Trek MTB. The shifters were frozen so I had to tear them down and clean them. Note to self: Tearing down index shifters isn't the best way to relieve frustration.

Thanks for any help,

Rob
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Old 07-15-07, 03:30 PM
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The pic is not real clear... but it looks like a crack in the dropout - just off the chainstay.
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Old 07-15-07, 03:49 PM
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You might want to check the headset too. Pull the front brake with the bike on the ground, and rock the bike back and forth, if there is noticeable movement from the front wheel then your headset needs to be tightened.
As for the back wheel you can't take it to your LBS and they'll true it, and it shouldn't be more than ten bucks. I think it's worth it to see if that works then fork out the dough and buy a new wheel.
I think that's Dura-Ace AX. Here's some pics of the AX gruppo. https://www.classicrendezvous.com/Japan/Shimano.htm
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Old 07-15-07, 04:25 PM
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dura ace Ax (alpha x) circa 1982 or so...

not 7400 that came later (next) I think. This is from a 6-speed group though and the 7400 started out in the 6 speeds.
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Old 07-15-07, 05:07 PM
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A-X, that makes sense. I was trying to make it out as EX, wasn't aware of the AX group. Bike is from the late 80's I'm told.

Lug is not cracked; that's just some dirt. Sorry about the lousy pic there; camera batteries died.

Headset is OK; thanks, should have mentioned that.

And no, I don't have a good wheelset to try. I've been out of biking for about 20 years, and then it was mountain bikes. I do have some lumps of rust left that an optimist might identify as MTB's, but none of them are ready to go either.

LBS? Might be worth a shot; I didn't realize the work wouldn't cost too much. Just have some "BS" though; no "L" involved (I'm kind of out in the country).

Thanks all,
Rob
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Old 07-16-07, 02:36 AM
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[Imy MBK is very similar !MG]https://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q299/ozneddy_photo/unknownbike001.jpg[/IMG]
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Old 07-16-07, 02:37 AM
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Old 07-18-07, 03:40 PM
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ozneddy, that does look more than a bit familiar. What do the decals say, I can't quite make them out?

Thanks,
Rob
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Old 07-18-07, 04:25 PM
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1.5mm out of true isn't too bad. If there are no huge WOOPs in the rim (my technical term for a bad spot that sort of woops in and out) a good mechanic should be able to get it pretty true. As a mechanic myself I will try to true a wheel for about 5 minutes if it is really bad and then make a decision. If I feel that the spoke tension will be too variable and I won't be able to get the wheel as true as I want it I will call the customer and tell them it's gonna cost them $20 and the wheel will be usable but probably not stay true for that long. If the bearings are toast I will also note that the labour alone on a rear hub overhaul is $20. And that to get this wheel in decent riding shape it will cost them in the area of $50 or more and that they should think about buying a new wheel... if the hub is of good quality we will recommend a new rim.
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Old 07-18-07, 04:34 PM
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It looks like the original Graftek carbon fiber frame, but I could be wrong as I never paid a whole lot of attention to carbon fiber.
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Old 07-18-07, 05:14 PM
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Blackboat....I can hopefully key you in to some info about your bike. First...I have one! A couple of things, that bike did NOT come with those cranks, they were not even made anymore when you frame was and if memory serves, I think it came with a full Ultegra 600 group back then. My very first road bike was the Tange built Ironman (yes, the purple and yellow one...lol) model just below the carbon, and it came with the first gen 105. I don't remember if a Dura-Ace bike was sold per se although I have seen DA builds on the road. As for the shaking when riding thing...I would caution a guess that it's a combination of things. Did you say that there WAS a flat spot in the wheel? That would add to it. Also, your headset may be loose and/or pitted and unless it's new is a pretty good possibility. Now, here is the part you can't fix...and it comes with a question. Does it "shimmy and shake" at any and all speeds? If yes, then it's most likely just the wheels, etc... If it only shakes at high speeds, like when your descending a hill, simply clamp your knees on the top-tube, that is simply due to the fact that that's a pretty big frame (58? 60?), and with an all aluminum fork, you may have a high-speed shimmy.

I was kinda bummed that your getting frustrated, in it's day, that was actually a pretty nice bike. I loved my steel one back in the day, and I like getting my "vintage" carbon Ironman down off the rack for a ride every now and again. I hope you get yours running well, I think once it's "up to snuff" you'll like it, but if not, there is actually still a market for them if you look around on the net.

Just a funny quip to end...my original Ironman (the purple and yellow) also happened to be my high school colors, so when I graduated, I sold it to my band teacher. He was a pretty avid rider and couldn't go without it.
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Old 07-18-07, 05:48 PM
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Wild. All the early lugged carbon fibre bikes scare me.
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Old 07-19-07, 05:02 AM
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blackboat the decals say MBK , KEVLIGHT , it is a Motobecane, i was told that the frame could have been made by either ALAN or VITUS and just badged for MBK (Motobecane changed the name to MBK in the 80,s) i hope this help,s u as i am no expert but i have always found T-Mars expertise invaluable ! good luck with it ( i personally like them,dunno why lol) ozneddy !
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Old 07-19-07, 05:28 AM
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The MBK is a TVT frame = early LOOK frame.
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Old 07-19-07, 04:43 PM
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First off, you need to replace that rim and the spokes. The spoke nipples from that period of rims only go through the first wall of the rims, and once they have significant warp, they are toast. You can spend lots of time truing it, rebuilding it with new spokes, etc. It will be well worth your time and money to get a new rim built around the existing or a new hub.

As for re-building a new back wheel, I may have some bad news for you. Many 6-speed aluminum-framed or lugged bikes from the same period can't be bent out to accept the more modern 130 mm wide hub-sets. The axle drop-outs for the 1988-1990 6-7 speed rear cog hubs are 126 mm wide. They just stopped making those very soon after that (in favor of 7-9 speed cassette hubs), and it is very, very, very difficult to get a new back wheel with a new hub. The only company that makes new ones is in that size is Phil Wood, and they are damn pricey (about $130 for a naked hub with no cogs, spokes, rim, etc.).

I think that your best option is to get a more modern rim and build a wheel around your existing hub with new spokes. This will cost you in the $120 and up range for parts and labor around here, depending on how tough or light you want the rim to be. If you want to try it for yourself, newer and super-tough rims are about $30, and I don't know the price of the spokes, but I'm sure that they are no more than a dollar or two each at most (probably 32 or 36 spokes on that tire).

If you don't like the bike that much, I would also consider just looking on CL or at local garrage sales for another bike that you DO like. You will be able to find some old Japanese chromolly bike that works just fine, for cheaper than we are talking about above. You may want to cut your losses.

Later.
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Old 07-20-07, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by tellyho
Wild. All the early lugged carbon fibre bikes scare me.
yeah, it scares me too, ive seen carbon fiber fail, it usually cracks and then shatters in my experience. pretty catastrophic.
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Old 07-20-07, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuckk
I came out this morning and all that was under the hook I had my Trek 5200 hanging on was a pile of dust and components! Total overnight disintegration!!
Really?

My CF bike spontaneously burned up, fell over, and then sank into the swamp.
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Old 07-20-07, 06:04 PM
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gawd. I have a carbon fiber bike too...a 5200 with about a zillion miles on it...I'd better go look.

BTW, you can get a good set of wheels pretty cheap on eBay, seven speeds or anyway you want 'em. you also need to consider that the stem looks to be pretty long...a shorter one won't jerk the bike around when you burp...
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Old 07-20-07, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbossman
Really?

My CF bike spontaneously burned up, fell over, and then sank into the swamp.

But then I got another one, and that one burned up and sank into the swamp.

But the third one, the third one stayed....oh heck...you get the joke.
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Old 07-28-07, 03:43 PM
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Thanks for all the tips and thoughts. I've been too sick and too busy to check in much.

I'm going to try seeking advice at a shop tomorrow, and see if I can start sorting this thing out.

A lot of my frustration comes from the fact I do all the work on our MTB's, and don't usually have problems. Part of it may be I'm just not used to these skinny bikes. All that, and the fact that it has taken a huge mental effort to refocus on my health and try to ride, and then be put off.

vpiuva: Don't stayt home waiting on the brown truck just yet.

Pinyon: Thanks for some of the technical sorting out. Based on what happens tomorrow, I'll probably just build with a new rim and spokes off the existing hub.

I actually like the bike a lot; was very tickled to have what seemed a nice bike in it's day, for a price I could cope with. Just kind of have that kid-with-a-broken-toy-feeling.

I'll get it figured out soon I hope. Now if I could figure out how you duct tape a hemorrhoid donut to a bicycle seat....

Thanks very much,

Rob
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Old 07-28-07, 09:28 PM
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I don't know about the rest of you but I think that thing is pretty cool looking, at least compared to how the carbon bikes look these days, hey at least it has lugs! I'd actually like to find an old composite bike like that. They are probably quite tuff compared to today. Remember when composite hockey sticks came out in the early 90s? They were awesome, now-a-days anything will break the new ones.
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Old 08-02-07, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by divineAndbright
I don't know about the rest of you but I think that thing is pretty cool looking, at least compared to how the carbon bikes look these days, hey at least it has lugs! I'd actually like to find an old composite bike like that. They are probably quite tuff compared to today. Remember when composite hockey sticks came out in the early 90s? They were awesome, now-a-days anything will break the new ones.
What size are you looking for?
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Old 08-06-07, 04:20 AM
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? Q

Originally Posted by brew
yeah, it scares me too, ive seen carbon fiber fail, it usually cracks and then shatters in my experience. pretty catastrophic.

As scary as it may be I like the style of the frame.

Apply some elbow grease with Blue Magic in the joints to see that metal sparkle against the exposed carbon.

You may not like the bike gremlins, but is a good find. I wish I could have my hands in one of those.
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Old 08-06-07, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by redtires
What size are you looking for?
I ride a 53/54cm
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Old 08-06-07, 09:58 PM
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Quick update: Trip to the Sort-of LBS was delayed until this past weekend, but I sucked up my pride and walked in with my puzzling rear wheel. The gentleman dropped it in a truing stand, didn't think it was so bad, so I picked out some rubber and progress began. I noticed while he was adjusting the spokes that he stopped and adjusted the rear bearings - OOPS, missed that. Gotta build a truing stand and quit trying to do this while holding the bike in my lap.

Anyway, the lumpy old tires are gone, it's feeling a lot better. While they were working on the bike I picked out my first ever helmet; thought it better to get that local where I could check fit.

Spent this evening learning how to get my new shoes with cleats to mate up to the pedals (only have used basket type toe clips in the past). The dogs kind of backed off to a corner during this demonstration (working on the "bicycle sofa" inside again).

Also learned this week that if you think you look overweight when staring at yourself naked in the mirror, just put on some bike shorts - it can actually get worse. Yeesh, gives me the willies thinking about it.

The downer part of today's update is that I didn't actually get to ride. Had to pull all the main electrical cables out of the old Dodge diesel and clean them, resolder some half-***** conections done by some shop in the past, but at least the truck runs now. Two batteries is a real downer when you've got to service the whole attached pile of guts that go with it. But hey, I can fix my truck, just not my bicycle apparently.

Enjoyed the trip to the LBS; got to chat some with the staff and some other customers waiting on various things. Most enjoyable; makes me realize how isolated I've become from overwork. Get to watch people test out $3000 bikes, while I'm sitting there totting up my purchases in my noggin, thinking "darn, two tires and a helmet, I've about doubled the money in my CL deluxe special." Oh yeah don't forget the bartape (got pretty yellow bartape to go with the pretty yellow Lithions, which all sort of match the yellow SPD pedals I robbed from my daughter's mountain bike build up. Yellow is kind of the theme now, since I didn't see anything in screaming loud green. [hears heads shaking, mumbles of noobies got no taste...etc]

Anyway, given all but the worst weather, I'll do a quick pressure check on the tires, don my sexy new shorts with the built in diapers, place my new styrofoam chapeau upon my head (and yes I actually read the instructions on how to wear a plastic hat), slip my dainty little cleated booties over all the little piggies, and I shall endeavor to stay aloft (or at least mostly upright) for a full twenty minutes. Mainly because it'll take me a full 18 minutes to get up the nerve to try and stop the thing and remember how to remove my feet from the cute little deathtraps they're stuck to. Tallyho!

Getting back to the classic bike topic, I'm hoping after a couple of rides I'll have the brake hoods where I want them and can complete the bar taping extravaganza (where did I put that Sheldon Brown article?), and I'll finish polishing the aluminium chunks and then we'll take a nice presentable pic before I get it all dirty again.

Started working on the some of the polishing this evening while "Saving Grace" was on. Holly Hunter is from around here, so we watch.

ANyway, my pills are kicking in and I'll start rambling even worse, so I'll quit now. Should be able to wrap up this thread on a happy note, and then it's off to moan in the Clydesdale forum.

Thanks,
Rob
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