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  1. #1
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    1969 Schwinn Super Sport -- fillet brazed?

    Hi,

    I was wondering if anyone had any information about the 1969 Schwinn Super Sport? I just got what appears to be a SS manufactured in July 1969, but some details don’t match up with the info posted on Mark Rother’s article on Sheldon Brown’s site.

    The serial number on the bike pictured (a recent craigslist find) begins with GE (according to Rother: July 1969), and the joint between the downtube, top tube and head tube looks rounded in the classic fillet brazed fashion. But (and this is where I’m confused) the seat-, down-, and top-tube junction does not look fillet brazed. These tubes also seem skinnier than the article suggests they should be. The serial number is on the dropout though Rother says that after 1965 they moved to the head tube.
    Everything else matches up – the serial number, color (“campus green”), chrome fork, original components (brooks saddle, Ashtabula crank, stem shifters) etc. all seem right for the ‘69 super sport.

    Obviously I’ve significantly altered its stock configuration to set it up as a fixed gear with sealed cartridge bottom bracket (using the Truvativ American one piece conversion cups) and sugino cranks, but I still have all the original bits in a box if any of them would help.

    My guess is that (though Rother’s article doesn’t mention this) in 1969 they were using some mix of welding techniques on these frames. Anyone know anything about the materials used or the frame construction?

    Thanks for your help!

    Pics (the last link is the best pic of the complete bike, pic0020.jpg shows the joint that doesn't look like Rother's description):

    http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...rt/pic0021.jpg
    http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...rt/pic0020.jpg
    http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...rt/pic0018.jpg
    http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...rt/pic0017.jpg
    http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...rt/pic0016.jpg
    http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...rt/pic0015.jpg
    http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...rt/pic0014.jpg

  2. #2
    crotchety young dude el twe's Avatar
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    I believe it's half fillet (front), half electro-forged (rear).
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  3. #3
    Senior Member bigwoo's Avatar
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    I was expecting to see bullet point seat stays...
    Stan or Bob should be able to give some insight
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  4. #4
    Senior Member ollo_ollo's Avatar
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    Hard to tell from the picture but it looks like an electro forged frame with SS decals, especially the stamped rear dropouts vs forged on the SS. The fillet brazing on the Super Sports I have seen wasn't all that smooth & was easy to see where it joins the frame. The electro forged frames actually appear smoother(since they aren't brazed). Here's a pic of my 64 SS that looks pretty smooth in the photo but it was easy to see the brazing in person. The fork on mine was also different. Another way to tell would be to weigh the bare frame. Don
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by ollo_ollo; 07-26-07 at 10:26 PM.
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  5. #5
    Freewheel Medic pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
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    By '69 all but Paramounts had gone to stem shifters, which your bike appears to have had. Another way to ID EF verses FB is to look at how the BB shell joins the down and seat tube and the chain stays. FB is rather smooth and even, while the EF is rough and not very neat. That area was one place EF couldn't be very smooth, especially at the seat stays. Another clue would be the seatpost. My EF Schwinns all have that skinny little Schwinn seatpost while my '73 Super Sport uses a 26.8 mm seat post. Your's looks like the skinny one to me. I believe someone, a good number of years ago, applied Super Sport decals to a Continental frame. My '62 has a chrome fork with a different chrown from ollo ollo's.
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  6. #6
    Keeper of the SLDB BobHufford's Avatar
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    Super Spoof ... the '69 Super Sport would have forged Huret dropouts, fillet brazed joints everywhere, bullet seat stay caps, larger seat tube and the serial number would be in the format of 'K9018' (the 18th frame built in October of 1969). They did a nice job of it. Pastor Bob is right, check for evidence of the E-F process just back of the BB shell where they didn't clean up the slag from the welding. There should be a ring around both the chain stays about an inch back (unless the forger cleaned them up).

    The tubing junctures on this are just too nice to be Schwinn fillet brazing -- maybe Ritchey.

    Bob

  7. #7
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    Hey - thanks very much for all of your replies. The only strange thing is that the entire bike cost me $40 -- I could sell the saddle for $40 on ebay so it's odd that it would be a forgery in order to trick me. The original owner bought it in 69 or 70 -- would anyone have been making forgeries then (i.e. did the SS have enough of a reputation at the time to warrant sticking a brooks saddle and fake decals on a continental?)

    The seat post is super skinny. I think from what everyone has said it is definitely not entirely fillet brazed -- so I guess I'm just wondering (before deciding it's on old forgery) if el twe could be right, and maybe on older super sports the fillet braze process was only partially used?

  8. #8
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    It is hard to believe someone would go to the effort to intentionally "fake" a Super Sport by putting SS decals on a Continental. The Super Sport was painted on the same production line as the Continental. Maybe someone on the production line messed up. If that happened, I don't think the bike would have passed inspection...it probably would have gotten sent to a "reject" pile. Perhaps an employee rescued it, and took it home...by now the bike may be on its tenth owner.

  9. #9
    Keeper of the SLDB BobHufford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_ill_postino View Post
    The seat post is super skinny. I think from what everyone has said it is definitely not entirely fillet brazed -- so I guess I'm just wondering (before deciding it's on old forgery) if el twe could be right, and maybe on older super sports the fillet braze process was only partially used?
    I'm not sure if they could E-F (flash weld) the cro-mo steels used in the SS ... maybe. I can't see partially E-F'ing the toptube/seattube joint as that was the hardest joint to deal with on a fully E-F'd (this is funny to type) frame anyway. It's sort of auto silver brazed actually ...

    I see no reason to fake an SS. Only a $28 markup or so and the saddle would eat up most, if not all, of that. The decal screw up on the line makes sense ... (hey, they do look the same -- probably why they didn't sell). Then again, how hard would it be to redecal and ship back out -- they are not clearcoated over. I dunno ...

    Bob

  10. #10
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    I think the guy was the first or second owner: again, it's hard to imagine he would lie for $40 (In Chicago you can get $150 for almost any bike that works.) But who know what those 1 or 2 owners did to the bike.

    I would love to see another 1969 super sport to compare -- googling around for super sports it seems like everyone who has one has a seventy-something. The catalog pictures for '69 don't seem to show the bike in detail.

  11. #11
    dck
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    The headbadge is non-original...it's off-center. Looks like it had a vertical oval badge originally. The holes are still there.

    You could part it out and triple your investment.

  12. #12
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    Well spotted. So only super sports had the round badge?

    What a crazy amount of work for a small deception. Seems like something that must have happened at the factory or dealer, where a surplus of higher end parts like the brooks saddle (ps, obviously not the B17 saddle in my pictures -- the original was a B15) got stuck on a surplus of continental frames.

    But yeah, thankfully I don't need to feel cheated money-wise -- I'm just curious about the story behind it.

  13. #13
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
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    Does anyone know what a 1969 Super Sport frame should weigh, versus as 1969 Varsinental?
    "Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
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  14. #14
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    new evidence for the super dupe theory -- my bike measures 23" center to top which apparently was a continental size but not a super sport size. See:
    http://www.geocities.com/sldbconsume.../69ccpg09b.jpg

  15. #15
    Keeper of the SLDB BobHufford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_ill_postino View Post
    new evidence for the super dupe theory -- my bike measures 23" center to top which apparently was a continental size but not a super sport size.
    But yours is probably 24" to the top of the seat tube. This doesn't really make any difference. Schwinn didn't start measuring the E-F frames to the top of the seat tube until 1971. The 1970 23" Continental magically became a 24" Continental in 1971 but was really the same frame. They measured the SS to the top of the seat tube all along. Who knows why ... (!?)

    Bob

  16. #16
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    Hmm, I'm confused. The 23" measurement on my bike is center of the bottom bracket to the top of the seat tube, so it's something like 22" center of the bb to the point on the seat tube even with the top of the top tube. But that's odd if EF'd frames were measured center to top of the tt in '69, and FB'd super sports were measured center to top of the seat tube, because then mine was built either as a 23" super sport or a 22" continental, neither of which appear as options in the catalog.

  17. #17
    FalconLvr
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    Well, I can tell you that back in the early 70's it was really easy to score SS decals, or Continental, or whatever, as well as headbadges, etc at any Schwinn dealership. For myself, my niece had an old Sears Austrian bike (Styer I believe) and she really wanted a Supersport. No problem, I told her, and proceeded to strip the bike, remove the paint, repaint with rattle can schwinn yellow (also available at all dealers), buy a variety of cool parts (schwinn bars, suntour cyclone deraillers, etc etc) and redo the headbadge and decals with "Schwinn Super Sport". Then I clearcoated the heck out of it. Schwinn Super Sport with lugged frame! She was pleased as punch! I imagine anyone running into that now would really be perplexed,,,,,

  18. #18
    joychri
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    The following link has a few pictures of my 1968/69 Schwinn Super Sport. Hope the pictures help.

    http://www.picturetrail.com/joychri

  19. #19
    Freewheel Medic pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dck View Post
    The headbadge is non-original...it's off-center. Looks like it had a vertical oval badge originally. The holes are still there.

    You could part it out and triple your investment.
    The head badge looks similar to the well worn one on my '62 Continental.

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  20. #20
    Senior Member Bikedued's Avatar
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    The Brooks isn't part of the equation really. It's a newer model black railed B-17, and the SS came with a black B-15 with chrome rails I believe. At least my 74 has one, and all the literature I've read about them says they had B15's, which aren't made anymore. A nice addition, but no way original. The headbadge holes are a dead giveaway. A cool bike nonetheless!!,,,,BD
    The one good thing about black cork wrap is that it's better than nothing.

  21. #21
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    On the saddle: yeah, sorry - I clarified that above but it's sort of tucked away in a middle post. My bike had a very worn black B15, I just replaced it with that honey B17 when I converted it to fixed.

    Thanks for the pics, joychri -- very clearly a different frame than my imposter. Just added tourguard tires which match with the natural cork, and some fenders -- so it as at least a pretty beautiful and fun-to-ride imposter.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_ill_postino View Post
    Hmm, I'm confused. The 23" measurement on my bike is center of the bottom bracket to the top of the seat tube, so it's something like 22" center of the bb to the point on the seat tube even with the top of the top tube. But that's odd if EF'd frames were measured center to top of the tt in '69, and FB'd super sports were measured center to top of the seat tube, because then mine was built either as a 23" super sport or a 22" continental, neither of which appear as options in the catalog.
    The models such as the Continental had a clamp at the top of the seat tube. Looking at the old catalogs, I've been guessing Schwinn measured the Continental size from the center of the BB to the top edge of that clamp (which was at least an inch higher than the top of the top tube, and almost two inches higher than the "center" of the top tube). Maybe some of the folks with old Continentals can take some measurements, and verify how the "actual" size compares with the "catalog" size.

  23. #23
    Matthew Grimm / Flunky Kogswell's Avatar
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    Speaking of Super Sports, I have a frame that looks like Don's '64. It has brazed-on shifters like the one in the photo below. And there's a Schwinn decal on the seat tube. So it appears to be a fillet brazed Schwinn of some sort.

    The Serial number on the forged dropout (that looks like it might be a Huret dropout) starts with a "G". If it is a Super Sport, what year is G?

    Thanks in advance, Matthew

    ps. Wasn't there an EF Super Sport? Something about the OP's bike looks legit to me. Wasn't there an EF model above the Continental called Super Sport? I'm thinking that it was a 15 speed.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  24. #24
    Keeper of the SLDB BobHufford's Avatar
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    Matthew,

    'G' would be the month of July -- the next letter or number would be the year. There was a 15 speed Super Continental and a 15 speed Sierra that were E-F.

    Bob

  25. #25
    K2ProFlex baby! ilikebikes's Avatar
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    the_ill_postino, not hijacking just a question I must be sure of, This is supposed to be a 1972 SS, I know the pics arent great, but can you guys try and tell me if it is an SS or not? Thanks








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