wahoonc

SirMike,
It won't matter if the name is sullied or not, the name owners got their money and will move on to something else to make a buck. It happens time and time again. I also agree with the Walmart assembly procedures, FWIW I have seen the assembly area in a couple of stores...it is usually in the back corner of lawn and garden where they store the unassembled bikes, between the fertilizer and barbecues. Up until about 1985 the department store bikes were viable as long as you stayed away from the multi speed. I have redone a couple of the Huffy Baypoints and they were of a better quality than a similar Schwinn Collegiate of the same era. After that they went down hill fast. I was looking at the bicycles in stock at REI today and those bikes aren't cheap. Everything has gone to aluminum because it is cheap (labor wise) to build. Personally I don't like the look of the exterior welds and some of those look pretty rough too. I actually have one steel cantilever frame of unknown origin, and probably from around 1984 that they burned thru the chain stay tube when they welded the kickstand plate on...not a real vote of confidence in the rest of the frame building techniques, just added some putty painted it and sent it off to America.
Yet another reason why I am holding on to my old stuff and being a curmudgeon about it. Carbon fiber...bah humbug!

Aaron

Schwinnhund

Schwinn began having their bicycles made in Asia back during the Bike Boom of the late 70s, early 80s, because they were unable to compete with them . First Giant, then Panasonic made the bikes for Schwinn. The only model that remained US-made after 1985 was the Paramount, and in 1989, it too succumbed to the Asian-Persuasion.

As for a bike-shop vs Walmart Schwinn, it depends on what you are going to do with the bike. They are all Pacific Bicycle products from China (as are Mongoose, Next, and Huffy). The Bike Shop Schwinns have more up-scaled components, because they were ordered that way. Bike Shops market towards the more serious riders. Walmart is marketing to kids, casual riders, and such, so there is no need for the more expensive parts. The ones they come with are just fine for recreational and general utility riding. Yes, the clerks at Walmart often assemble bikes incorrectly...they probably don't ride, and have trouble reading instructions. The cure for that is to get one in the box (they have plenty and are only too happy to let you have one, so they don't have to assemble another one for the display), take it home and assemble it yourself. Or take it to a bike mechanic and have them do it. Personally, I do all my own work...that's half the fun of having a bicycle (or 7, or 8. etc...).

The truth of the matter is that, regardless of their brand name, just about all production bike frames are made in China by a company called Ten Tech, or by Giant, in Taiwan. Giant is the world's largest manufacturer of bicycle frames at present. So, until you get into the high-end bikes, the brand name is almost irrelevant. Your Schwinn was probably made right next to a Huffy, a Giant, and a Mongoose frame. The only real difference is the paint-job and decals. This is true for Bike Shop bikes as well.

Remember, you can always upgrade your components later, if you need to. There is nothing wrong with Walmart Schwinns if they are used within reasonable limitations.. Like most things, it's the man (or woman)...not the machine, that counts the most.

lord_athlon

Panasonic, then Panasonic and Giant, then Giant, then Greenville, then Bankruptcy.

mtnbke

So many posters in this thread are just completely misinformed. First of all Dorel/Pacific largely owns their own production in Taiwan and China. There are incestuous relationships in the cycling world, but the idea that Giant is the manufacturer of bikes for the Pacific portfolio is just erroneous. See link below for a pictorial walkthrough of one of the Dorel/Pacific factories.

First of all let's carve out Pacific and locate the conversation where it really needs to be, with Dorel. Dorel is a Canadian company that owns Pacific Cycles,an American company, as a subsidiary. Dorel does not concentrate on one single distribution channel, like independent local bike shops, which is where a lot of the confusion comes into play and you'll see a lot people posting to threads like this really not knowing what the hell they are talking about. Dorel is a actually a brilliant company and has over $2.5 billion dollars in revenue annually.

Before we get into the bikes, what you probably don't know is that Dorel makes baby/kid stuff under the brands Safety 1st, Maxi-Cosi, Quinny, Tiny Love, Bébé Confort, Cosco, Infanti, and Baby Art. Think car seats, cribs, high chairs, baby gates, etc. They also own KidTrax which competes in the space against Peg Perego making electric powered kid vehicles. There is a portfolio of furniture holdings that isn't very interesting.

Now back to the bikes: Between the Dorel umbrella and the Pacific operations the corporation owns Cannondale, Sugoi (cycling apparel), Guru (the bike fit company), Brunswick (bicycles), Caloi, Mongoose, Fabric (bike accessories), Roadmaster, Schwinn, GT, IronHorse, and DYNO, Charge, and also InStep (trailers), CannondaleSports (clothing), and Sombrio (free ride cycling clothing), and Powerlite (BMX).

Dorel maintains two independent distribution channels of which most people are ignorant: PCG (Pacific Cycle Group) and CSG (Cycling Sports Group).

Within the PCG channel there are two sub-channels the Mass Merchant Channel and the Sporting Goods Channel. In the Mass Merchant Channel you will find low-end "department store" branded Schwinn or Mongoose at retail partners like Wal-Mart, Target, Kmart, Sears, or Toys "R" Us. In the Sporting Goods Channel you'll typically find a higher quality level of bikes than those sold via the Mass Merchant Channel, through the distribution partners include Dick's Sporting Goods, Academy Sports, Sports Authority, Dunham's Sports and Canadian Tire in Canada.

Within the CSG channel bicycles are distributed through two sub-channels IBD (independent bicycle dealers) and Speciality Store (think national retailers like Performance).

The way to think about branding within the Dorel/Pacific nameplates is that there really are three tiers: Mass Merchant, Sporting Goods, Independent Bicycle Dealers, and Specialty Stores. To say that a Schwinn is junk is just wholly ignorant. A Mass Merchant Schwinn might compare to a historical Huffy or Murray, and something in the Sporting Goods channel will compare to the stovepipe Schwinn's of yore that were peddled on ignorant American consumers who thought these were "quality" bikes. However, a Schwinn branded bike available through the Specialty Store channel or Independent Bike Dealers absolutely can be the quality and performance equivalent of a modern Trek/Giant/Specialized so to characterize a Schwinn as "junk" is just wholly ignorant. The Schwinn brand and nameplate is effectively leveraged throughout all four sub-channels and both distribution channels and the price point of the bikes can be as low as a hundred bucks to bikes that are solid values at just under a grand.

In the new bicycle marketplace brand or nameplate really is meaningless. The historical Schwinn taught the precursor of Giant in Taiwan the inside knowledge of how to make their bikes, and the rest is history. The idea that there really is differentiation in the manufacturing capabilities of Specialized (which outsources almost everything contract to Taiwan factories), Giant, or the high-end price point bikes of Dorel/Pacific (GT or Cannondale) is absurd. Dorel has steadfastly maintained to their IBD partners that they will NOT dilute the Cannondale brand in the Mass Market or Sporting Goods channel the way they have with Schwinn. Its a fine line between extracting the value of the nameplate and brand in every competitive space, and brand risk that essentially busts out the goodwill of the Schwinn nameplate with the "junk" that gets sold through the Mass Market sub channel.

This company does not just make junk, if Cannondale R&D budget wasn't enough to convince you otherwise, think about just the resurrection of the GT high end offerings:

The GT Fury World Cup bike is an $8000 bike:
GT Fury World Cup Downhill Mountain Bike - 2015
Heck, just a GT Sensor frame is $3000:
GT Sensor Carbon 27.5" Mountain Bike Frame - 2015

Those who think that "master frame builders" of the vintage era with essentially nothing but some brass/silver, a torch, and a jig were building better frames than the modern "junk" we think comes from Taiwan had better think again. The engineering, competence, and craftsmanship in the Pacific factories is unparalleled in the vintage cycling world (even by the likes of Cannondale and Klein pre acquisitions). Not everything they make is high end, but make no mistake their capabilities to actually make high end bikes is almost unparalleled. Think about it as being similar to the German corporation that owns the ghetto grocery chain ALDI but also which owns Trader Joe's stores as well. Companies don't care if they sell the high zoot bike, or the price-point bike, they just want to participate in every transaction. A very informative piece on the technical capability and engineering viewpoint into one of the Pacific Bicycle Taiwanese factories (which contracts to make Banshee bikes on top of other Dorel/Pacific nameplates:
Closer Look - Where your bike comes from! - Pinkbike

We'll probably never discover all the "name brand" bikes that Dorel/Pacific actually manufacture for, but anyone who believes that there is any effective variance between the Dorel holdings, Accel Group holdings (Raleigh, Diamondback, Redline, Batavus, Sparta, Koga, Loekie, Ghost, Haibike, Winora, Lapierre, Tunturi, Atala, XLC), or the PON group holdings (Cervélo, Focus, Santa Cruz, Juliana, Nishiki, Univega, Rixe, Gazelle, Union, Kalkhoff, BBB cycling) and the likes of Trek, Specialized, Giant, Bianchi, Olmo, Orbea or really any other cycling manufacturer is deluded. Heck, the dirty secret in the industry is that you can get a Bikes-Direct (Raleigh, Mercier, Motobecane, Kestrel or Windsor) bike and it was made in the same factory as a bike being sold with the same components and similar wheels for twice the price. Its the engineering and manufacturing competence of the factory making the frame not the sticker nameplate, that and the components which are the same or better. We have a Mercier made of Columbus shaped/engineered aluminum tubing with a Carbon rear triangle. This bikesdirect.com product is a better bike than probably every Pinarello, Olmo, Lemond (steel and titanium), Tommassini, Gunnar, Cannondale or Klein I've ever owned. That's saying something because I freakin' LOVE Klein and Cannondale bikes. However, frame building technology has literally jumped the shark compared to what we think is good historically. Now the market might not accept that, but trust me you could field a competitive UCI Div I team riding frames from bikesdirect.com because essentially the good bikes and the "cheap" bikes all come from the same factories at this point.

Very interesting things in the Dorel/Pacific corporate holdings:

Guru potentially could revolutionize fitting cyclists to bicycles in this industry. It makes efforts like what Serotta used to do with bike fitting (and then normalized the numbers anyway) look like child's play. The GURU fit system and the Academy is something you have to see to believe, but the real value of this holding is potentially in the fit database. Remember, on volume when a bicycle is sold in the US whether bike shop bike or department store bike, odds are its a Dorel bike. Read more about this company here:
https://www.gurucycling.com

Fabric is a really innovative bike accessories company that is currently making tools, grips, tape, saddles etc but whose market focus is to be viral in this competitive space. They want to be the Apple equivalent design studio of the bike accessories world. Their cageless water bottle has to be seen just because of the cool factor:
Fabric Waterbottle

SkyDog75

I usually try not to contribute to zombie threads, and I'm not normally argumentative, but I think we've got a few disagreements...

I'm sure some other Schwinnophile will chime in with more detail, but I don't believe that's right. Schwinn's factory in Greenville, Mississippi remained open until 1991. And the 1987 Schwinn catalog, as Scooper posted HERE, specifically mentions that a number of models including the Tempo, Passage, and Le Tour were to be built in Greenville that year.

Giant is huge (no pun intended), but there are a number of other Chinese and Taiwanese manufacturers who build bikes for various well-known brands: APro, Fairly, Ideal, Kinesis, Martec, Merida...

Just because they were built in the same factory by the same company doesn't mean they were built to the same specs. To use an example from another industry, the PlayStation 4, Xbox One, and Wii U are very different gaming consoles from different brands. But the Taiwanese manufacturer Foxconn builds all three.

OK, now that we can agree on. ;-)

Bikedued

I stopped reading after completely misinformed. Did you always dig up posts from 8 years ago?,,,,BD

old's'cool

I quite agree with this analysis, but I was little surprised to learn that I have a ghetto grocery store within 5 miles of my place, out here in the land of horse pastures, corn fields, golf courses, mid-6-figure subdivisions, not to mention rather grand mansions on finely landscaped acreages. Then of course, there's the likes of me, living in a paper shack around which all of the relatively wealthy folks have settled fairly recently.
While I am a fairly fussy shopper (i.e. groceries included), I do find myself going to ALDI for rank commodities such as certain produce items, cooking oil, spices, and eggs; as well as certain products they offer at a quality (really "goodness"; as an engineer I have a narrow definition of quality) and price point that fall within my scope, e.g. certain beers, chocolates, and deli items.
That said, of the grocery stores I frequent, ALDI is the one I could most easily do without; I would not be a happy camper if I had to get my entire grocery order there.

Lil Bear

Wait, what? Dorel owns Cosco? The Chinese government owns Cosco. Going back to my basic math, I believe by transition, Dorel = The People...

Anyhoo, back on topic... A company can make hundreds of brilliant bikes and one train-wreck of a POS, and guess what their legacy will be? Schwinn lives on in the eyes of many of us that were born before 1980 and remember fondly the good ol' bikes. I visualize millennials looking back fondly on owning a Schwinn "cuz it was cheaper than renting a bicycle for 5 days, and I'll be if that's not exactly how long it lasted. We ended up trading 2 of them for a pitcher of PBR. Sometimes I still feel bad about ripping off the bartender."

Doesn't matter how good the LBS bikes are. If you put your name on a pile, everything with your name on it becomes a pile.

mstateglfr 

There is just so.much that's wrong with this, it's too much to even wrap my mind around at this hour.

"At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul." -from Billy Madison

NormanF

The Cannondale Sports Group, headquartered in Madison, Wisconsin - the home of Trek - is the holding group for the historical American bike brands Cannondale, Schwinn, GT and Mongoose.

The latter three are sold both through mass merchant and specialty, i.e IBDS channels.

As usual, the specialty channel brands are of excellent quality. You do pay for what you get.

Schwinnhund

The Greenville plant closed in 1991 after several years of not turning out many bikes. They made Paramount frames, but the other frames were made in Asia and just assembled in Greenville. Any Schwinn made after the mid 1980s for under $500.00 was an Asian-Made frame.

I never said Giant was the only one that made frames for Schwinn, but they did make some...quite a few, actually. I also never said they were all made to the same specs. I just said they came from the same factory. The question was whether a Walmart Schwinn is as good as a Bike Shop Schwinn, and I just brought up some relevant things. "Good" depends on what you are going to use the bike for. I wouldn't recommend a Walmart Schwinn for competitive riding, but for recreational and utility riding, and maybe some light weekend trails, they are OK. I have one myself, and it actually gets used a little hard, running errands, and some trail riding here on the mountain. It's held up great for several years, so far.

I don't get hung up on numbers and brands. If you want to memorize all that stuff, that's fine, but what really counts is, "How is this bike going to hold up to pulling 50-100 lbs. in my trailer?", or, "How comfortable is this bike going to be riding 30-40 miles every day to work and home, in all kinds of weather?", "How much work is it going to take to keep this bike running?', "How will it handle loaded down with groceries?", "How will it handle in wet weather?". That's what matters, not the brand name, or even where it was made.

mstateglfr 

1. I have no idea why you brought this thread back from the dead, especially considering your resurrection thread is filled with inaccuracies and incorrect conclusions will be drawn from it.

1. You didn’t say Giant was the only one that made frames for Schwinn, but you did say they were the first. They werent. Panasonic was already making bikes for Schwinn.

1. You mention no Schwinn bikes after 85 were made in Greenville, but there were bikes made after ’85 in Greenville. Greenville brazed frames into the late 80s, according to news articles discussing the downfall and closing of the plant.

1. You claim that just about all bike frames are now made by either Giant or TenTech. That isnt even close to accurate.

1. You say you only claimed high and low end bikes(LBS Schwinn and BigBox Huffy) were made in the same factory, but you didn’t only claim that. You claimed they were “probably made right next to a Huffy, a Giant, and a Mongoose frame. The only real difference is the paint-job and decals. This is true for Bike Shop bikes as well.”
   Claiming they were made right next to a Huffy and Giant and that the only difference is paint and decals means you were suggesting they are all of equal quality. They arent of equal quality. While you didn’t outright say they were made to the same specs, you said the only difference is paind and decals, which would mean specs are the same.

I agree that what is important is how a bike will hold up to what you want to use it for- be it fast riding, commuting, cargo/errands, etc.

wrk101

+1. Giant wasn't first. Panasonic was much earlier. Even Bridgestone made some Schwinns. Giant came later. Even after Giant started production for Schwinn, Schwinn continued to have Panasonic make bikes for them, typically at the higher end of the product line.

2. Greenville did not make Paramounts.

3. Not all Mongoose bikes are mediocre big box bikes. I recently had a late 1990s Mongoose road bike, carbon frame, full Campy drivetrain. It was very affordable as most buyers thought it was a big box POS. I kind of wish I had kept that Mongoose, as it was a real sleeper. To sell it, I had to transform it into a Trek (former donor bike frame). And of course, the Mongoose BMX and MTBs from the 1980s were excellent.

Tundra_Man 

Zombie thread!

I have an '81 Panasonic Sport, and I used to have an '83 Schwinn World. The two frames are identical to my eye. I'm strongly suspecting my old Schwinn was a Panasonic built model.

My son has an '86 Schwinn World. His frame has minor differences to my Panasonic's frame. I suspect his bike was made by Giant.

Both my '83 and my son's '86 are way better bikes than my old mid-70's Schwinn Varsity.

This adds very little to this thread, but satisfies my need to type.

NormanF

99% of the world's bikes today are made in Taiwan.

If you want a domestic-made bike, expect to pay a pretty penny.

In a word, Taiwan is the reason the domestic bike manufacturing industry is basically (apart from custom builders and high end bikes) a historical relic now.

lord_athlon

Im not sure how this ended up happening, but im surrounded by Schwinns.

My former Voyageur 11.8 was a Panasonic made bike.
My Super Le Tour is a Greenville bike.
My Voyageur II is a Panasonic bike.
My Sports Tourer is a Chicago bike.

wahoonc

interesting I have 3 Schwinns one is a Giant, one is a Chicago and one is a Greenville. There is another WM Schwinn in the barn, no clue who built that BSO.

Aaron