JunkYardBike

Posted this in Mechanics, but I'm quite sure many of you will have had experience with adjustable cup BBs:

I've serviced and repacked numerous adjustable BBs, but I've never experienced this. BB is a Campagnolo Gran Sport, in tip-top shape. I packed 22 (11 per side) 25 grade 1/4" chromium bearing balls in generous amounts of marine bearing grease. There is no play at all in the spindle. When I rotate the spindle by hand very slowly, it spins smoothly, but it reaches a point of resistance which feels ever so slightly like binding. However, it doesn't take much pressure to spin it beyond that point. If I spin it faster, manually, I don't feel much resistance at all, but I hear clicking, as if the bearing balls are making contact. With a crank arm affixed, and spun rapidly, the clicking is even more pronounced.

I'm thinking it might also be the grease settling in, but I've used the same grease and greasing procedure before and have never heard this.

I'll add that when I remove the spindle, there is a visible gap between the bearing balls, so they are not overloaded. It makes the clicking noise (which sounds like bearing balls hitting one another) even when the adjustable cup is very loose, with lots of play in the spindle.

Any thoughts on how to resolve it, or even if this should be a concern?

dbakl

I don't recall the number of bearings in a Camp BB, but maybe too many?

melville

You may have a tight spot in the spindle or cups, possibly the BB faces are not exactly parallel.

Clicking in that case could be the individual balls hitting the tight spot and being sproinged into the next ball with some violence after getting through it.

11 per side is the correct amount. It is almost always the correct amount.

Frame and BB familiar with each other? Perhaps they wore in (GS stuff is at least 20yo), and with new balls/adjustment you've got the adjustable cup 180 deg out of its sweet spot.

Facing the BB shell couldn't hurt.

Good luck

Mel

repechage

I like melville's advice, its too tight in my experience. Call in the Campagnolo tool kit, check the facing, and well marine grease is not my favorite, too stiff, but I ran silicone oil in my track hubs...

JunkYardBike

The BB is a transplant from another frame, so it's quite possible melville is right. However, even when I back the adjustable cup out so the spindle is very, very loose, I hear the clicking. At some point, it finally does stop, but well beyond the point where the spindle is putting any significant pressure on the bearing balls.

As far as wear, this thing appears to have seen very, very little use. Not certain it would have developed a sweet spot.

Perhaps marine grease wasn't the best choice, but it's cheap and it's what I had. It's not possible the grease is binding it ever so slightly, is it?

Okay, so calling all Campagnolo toolkits, where are you? Not gonna call in any from ebay, that's for certain.

Otis

Assuming the faces on the shell are square I would just back off a little. If you mount the driveside crankarm, tightenend to spec. Then back off the adjustable cup as far as you can without any "shake" in the bearings. Having the one arm mounted you can pull back and forth on it to check for any play. Once you think it's all perfect remove the arm and spin by hand just to make sure.

nlerner

I'd trouble shoot with a different spindle to see if that's the problem. Seems like the cups and bearings are fine, and if the cups are threading in and out without problems, I'm not sure refacing is needed. I'm suspicious about that spindle!

Neal

coelcanth

did you use lots of grease ? or perhaps the grease you used is not very viscous ?
i sometimes hear clicking in old hubs and bottom brackets i work on with dry or thin grease and i assume it's the balls knocking into each other

JunkYardBike

Well, I was thinking the opposite. It's marine bearing grease, found at most auto parts stores, so it's very thick. As per Sheldon Brown and others, I usually load bearing assemblies with grease. However, I've used it with other cheaper BBs, and have never heard the clicking. When the spindle is seated against the bearing balls and cup, there is a small gap between the bearing balls, but not enough for another ball.

For what it's worth, I measured the originals, and they were 1/4" (I know some Campy BBs used odd sized bearing balls).

I'm thinking the bearing balls may be sticking a bit, wading through the grease, but will eventually work the excess grease out.

I tried removing a bearing ball from each side, but I hear the same sound.

I really don't think it's the spindle. The races look very, very clean. However, I suppose that's my next test.

JunkYardBike

I'll try this, too. The binding I felt was very, very slight...not much pressure at all to get past it, and only felt when spinning the spindle very slowly. I may be expecting too much perfection there.

However, even if I try this method, I'm sure I'll still here the clicking of the bearing balls.

JunkYardBike

With great contrition, I report that, in fact, it was an irregularity on a spindle race. Using the ballpoint pen trick, I found a very, very small imperfection on the bearing ball trail. Not sure I can blame my eyesight, as it is clearly visible now that I know it's there! Thanks for the help on what turned out to be a routine problem .

Anyone have a spare 115mm 68-SS Campagnolo BB spindle?

P.S. Adjustable cup feels good...not sure about the fixed cup as I can't remove it!

luker

No. Don't have a spare, but every time this has happened it has been a spindle change that fixed it...

JunkYardBike

Well, I have found one on ebay. But who's to say it won't have it's own irregularities.

One thing is for sure, rebuilding vintage bikes to spec takes the patience of an angel, especially if one it on a tight budget. This build has been going on for months...mainly because I'm a cheap bastid. I long ago abandoned the idea of remaining strict about dates and "correct" parts. Now I'm thinking modern cartridge BB!

cadillacmike68

The BB bearings weren't in a race??? Mine are in a race to keep them all spaced properly. but I have a 78 Nuovo Record BB set. My old Record BB set also has bearings in a race. Catalog 18 shows only 1 set of bearings - and these are in a race. Maybe you should get a race with the 11 bearings per side???

JunkYardBike

You mean a retainer? No, I used loose bearing balls. As far as I know, many people do this, as you can increase the number of bearing balls. I think a retainer only holds 9.

As an update, I have an offer on a spindle, but it ain't cheap. What are the chances the spindle isn't the only problem?

Antipodes

If you are having trouble getting the required torque to get it out, try an extension bar, such as an old piece of oversized tube, or other strong metal pipe with some decent length on the end of the BB tool. As with most BBs, keeping the tool on the darn cup is hard, but you may be able to rig up something to "clamp" the tool in place.
Otherwise, the method that ALWAYS works for me, albeit only with fixed cups that have "flats", is to clamp the flats in a vice and turn it out - just remember to turn the correct way and to remove whatever you can from the bike, as it's definitely easier when stuff like wheels and bars etc. are out of rotation's way.
Also, +1 on getting rid of the retainers. Why go with less balls than you have to? Retainers are good for speedy rebuilds, but that's about all.
Good luck!

-Leigh

Road Fan

This is the kind of thing that always makes me wonder if there's a way to re-finish a Campy bearing surface, or who knows how to perform this service. Ultimately there won't be any spares left to use as replacements!

Road Fan

melville

On occasion I did the 'pack it in Simichrome' trick. I'd spin the axle or spindle (for BBs, cut the head off a spindle bolt and chuck it in your drill motor) with my drill, stopping now and then to crank the adjustment down a touch. Disassemble, clean thoroughly, and repack with fresh grease and balls. These were done only as rescue projects--no guarantees.

That said, my track bike has a Chorus BB that was heavily water damaged. I packed that one in Bullseye Chrome Cleaner and spent about 20 minutes zinging that one at 3000 rpm, tightening the adjustable cup without even stopping. Smooth as can be, although chainline is the tiniest bit off, and it would fit better in a 67.5mm BB shell.

Later

Mel

Old Fat Guy

I have a NOS complete BB. PM me if you are interested. I'm out of town now, but will check in when I can. I'm back home Tuesday.

JunkYardBike

As per the stuck fixed cup, that was my doing! I must have really torqued it in there.

As an update, I called several LBS's, and none of them had facing tools! Probably for the best, anyway, as most of these shops know nothing about steel frames any longer.

Then I called my not-so-LBS, the guy who has built frames and has all necessary tools. He fell on the side of those who hold with the spindle as a problem. His opinion is that the cups and spindle are designed for some degree of angular irregularity, and that there would have to be a significant threading issue for the cups to be the culprit. I described the ever so slight binding (not sure I emphasized that enough here), and opined that if the cups were too far out of parallel, there would be significant binding on one portion of the rotation, and then significant play on another. He thinks the culprit is the tiny irregularity on the spindle race.

His recommendation was to pack with lots of grease and ride as is. Maybe he just doesn't feel like facing the BB shell!

My other option is to buy a $20 Miche sealed cartridge.