afilado

...From a novice admirer.

Is the linked Paramount for real? Why low interest by bidders? Please critique the frame in detail.

I've accumulated the early Campy components to build up such a frame for my son and need some help in identifying/finding the right frame. Is this a good prospect?

Thanks to all.

Scooper

The link is missing.

afilado

Forgot the link.

https://cgi.ebay.com/Schwinn-Paramoun...QQcmdZViewItem

I know less about computers than bikes. Will someone give me a tutorial on how to post a hyperlink.

Thanks

afilado

Boy, Stan, you are quick today. LOL.

I think I've now been successful.

Thanks.

Otis

You cannot judge "interest" on ebay until the last few minutes of the auction. No early bids can just mean savy bidders waiting on it.

I do not know much about Paramounts, but I would ask the seller if that one has been re-painted at some point.

Scooper

I can only tell you what my concerns would be about this bike.

For one thing, all P10s of that period had chromed headlugs (even those with Prugnat lugs) with chrome fork tips, chrome fork crown and chromed chainstays and seatstays near the dropout ends. The paint does not look like a standard Schwinn color for the period. The seller doesn't list the serial number.

There are just too many questions.

The price is reasonable, so if I were interested I might ask the seller the serial number and express my concerns, and if he/she had reasonable sounding answers I might consider bidding.

EDIT-The single picture for a $239 item isn't enough to satisfy me that it's a straight frame. I'd ask for more detailed photos. The seller has had enough transactions with 100% feedback, so should be willing to provide you more information.

Edit No. 2 - Check Bob Hufford's SLDB; I'm not sure the P10 is the right model number for that timeframe for the 10 speed touring model.

pastorbobnlnh 

I believe it is a repaint. First because the pump and rack match, and second, because I believe the fork is a replacement. Also, it does not look like a Schwinn color (but I could be wrong).

The frame has potential, but if you go with a restoration understand the cost. A decent paint job will begin at around $400 and will go up, up, up (depending on what you want done). If you have the components, you're half way there, so that's good. I'd say if you can pick up the frame for under $400 it will be a worth while project.

Ask the seller to provide the serial number or a picture of it, and check the fork steering tube. If it's a Paramount it has the serial number there as well (at least my '66 did). Best of luck!

afilado

Seller says the serial number is C7020. Is this consistent with what should be expected?

pastorbobnlnh 

Yes. This would be the 20th frame built in March 1970.

Pictured below is cudak888's 1970 Chrome Paramount with the Prugnat lugs.

Take a look at his fork and you will see why I think the one in the auction is a replacement.

dbakl

I agree, repainted and fork replaced, though I know on the Paramount track bikes there was an option to save 50 bucks by not having the lugs chromed.

Scooper

Yes. Twentieth frame built in March, 1970.

It's not a P10, because the 1970 price list shows only the P13-9, P14-9, and P15-9 (plus the tandems) in 1970. The P13 is the Professional Road Racer, the P14 is the track bike (which has the rear opening track dropout), and the P15 is the Deluxe Touring Paramount Road.

Bob Hufford's scans of the 1970 catalog are HERE.

The P13-9 and P15-9 are HERE, and the P14-9 is HERE.

EDIT - Pastor Bob, you're too fast for me.

Scooper

The P15-9 was the only model that year with eyelets for fenders and racks, and it looks like the rear rack is attached to eyelets. My guess is that it's a P15-9 frame.

Bob Hufford's 1970 P15-9 Dealer Specifications page is HERE.

afilado

The seller sent a photo showing ser. # on left rear dropout.

Is it then a P-15, rather than a P-10? That seems a crude mistake to make. What era was P-10 manufactured?

Further comments?

I will accumulate these notes and ask seller further questions.

Thanks to all.

Scooper

It is a P15-9 frame from the evidence available. The P15-9 had a triple chainring and 5 cog freewheel, making it a 15 speed bike. The P10-9 first came out in 1973, and is essentially a P15-9 with a double chainring instead of a triple, making it a 10-speed. Both the P10 and the P15 had the more relaxed touring geometry (which I prefer, BTW).

HERE's the link to the 1973 catalog page showing the P10-9 and P15-9.

I wouldn't be too hard on the seller. Unless he/she is very knowedgeable about Paramounts and what years the different models were produced, it would be easy to misidentify a P15 for a P10. The crankset is missing, so the seller wouldn't know whether it had a double or a triple chainring.

THIS PAGE shows the 1970 P15-9 colors. It was also available in full chrome like cudak888's 1970 in Pastor Bob's post above. Whether painted or fullly chromed, the fork ends, stay ends, head lugs, and fork crown should be chrome plated under the paint. One reason someone may have painted over the chrome could be that the chrome is pitted. If that's the case, replating the pitted chrome would be a very expensive proposition.

Finally, I agree with Pastor Bob and Debakl that the fork is not original to the frame. The fork crown that's on the bike is plain, whereas the original would have had fingers like the crown on cudak888's bike.

Picchio Special

How certain are you that only the P-15 had eyelets in 1970? I've been trying to pin this down for a while. Where does the info come from?

cudak888 

The fork is definitely a replacement - reminds me of a Raleigh Pro fork. Paramounts never used sloping crowns with a seamless lug transition.

As for the fork crowns used on the early '67 Paramounts, I should note that some of the early '67 Paramounts with Prugnat lugs may still feature Nervex fork crowns, left over from spare '66-production forks. There was a '67-70 (I'd put a bet it was a '67) P-15 on eBay recently that had this phenomenon.

-Kurt

cudak888 

Scooper, if that were so, why does my 1970 P10-9 have eyelets?

For that matter, why isn't there record of the P10 model in the 1970 catelogue? There are enough examples of '70 P10s out there to confirm that they did exist - furthermore, I'm 100% certain that the NR double crankset and short-cage NR RD on my '70 are original to the bike.

-Kurt

afilado

All, well most, of the components are for sale, as well: Nuevo Record, including double chainring/crank.

Seller seems to be very forthcoming with plentiful initial information. And appears to know or to have done research on the bike, with the some obvious exceptions pointed out here.

Did you read his voluntary notes regarding "Cinelli" fork crown and the variance in lugs?

The fork and possible repaint are still a big puzzle. No?

cudak888 

Here's a closer look at the fork crown:



-Kurt

afilado

How does incorrect fork affect value? Assuming no frame damage, now, still an open question.

Relacement fork would necessarily raise a logical question regarding possible front end crash, wouldn't it? Also it would inform questions re repaint?

Scooper

Kurt, I don't know. The P10-9 doesn't appear in the 1970, '71, or '72 catalogs or price lists (although it did appear on the September, 1972 Paramount Order Form, and that may have been for a 1973 model), so I made the more or less logical assumption that it wasn't manufactured as a model until '73. Schwinn was known to put just about anything on a Paramount a customer wanted, so if a customer asked for a double chainring instead of a triple, Schwinn would have done that although in 1970 I don't think they would have called it a P10. I think it would have been called a P15-9 with a double chainring.

Regarding eyelets on the 1970 P15-9, since the P15 was a "touring" model, and fenders were an option on the touring bikes, it just about had to have had brazed on eyelets. My 1972 P15-9 has eyelets. The 1971 specifications state that "The P15 Deluxe Paramount, on the other hand, is prmarily intended for general touring. The very broad gear range makes the P15 especially suited for touring in hilly or mountainous terrain. In addition, the frame stays and bridges are designed to accommodate touring equipment such as clincher tires and fenders..."

I've scanned the 1970 P15-9 image from the catalog in high resolution, and although it's difficult to see, there is the outline of an eyelet on the rear dropout.



Here's my chrome 1972 P15-9 with the front and rear fender stays secured to the eyelets:



Regarding the value of the frame with the replacement fork, that would be a deal killer for me.

cudak888 

Hey, Scoop - one other thing to note on that P15-9 from the catalogue - it has a double, and a short-cage NR...were the early P15s were double-chainring models?

-Kurt

cudak888 

Indeed - correct replacement forks for just about anything is a pain in the neck. Not only do you have to match the fork, you must match steer tube length (or longer, and have it threaded and cut) and color as well. This being a repaint, the only thing that would match is a fork from a chrome P-mount

-Kurt

Picchio Special

I'm not questioning whether or not the P-15 had eyelets in '70; I'm questioning whether P-13's definitely did not have them. Because prior to 1970, at least most P-13's apparently did have them. In fact, those earlier P-13's also had the braze-on top-tube guides, the more dramatic fork rake, and possibly the longer chainstays as well. What we think of as the 70's P-13 (shorter stays, Campy clips on top tube, no eyelets, less dramatic fork rake) didn't fully emerge until about '73. I have read that the eyelets on the P-13's didn't disappear until circa '71, but that is hard to pin down. Hence my question regarding the statement that the P-15 was the only Paramount that had eyelets in '70.

Scooper

Kurt, I'll be damned. Maybe in 1970 the P15-9 was a ten-speed. If so, I've been wrong for thirty or so years.

Good catch. So, your P10 is really a P15-9? I need to do some more digging.

In '71 the P15-9 definitely had a triple and the rear derailleur was that POS Gran Turismo. In late '72, because of the problems with it (the Gran Turismo) they committed heresy and went to the rebadged Shimano Crane (Schwinn-Approved GT-300 Le Tour). That's what was originally on my '72.